Stop please General forum

34 replies. Last post: 2017-10-02

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Stop please
  • Diamante at 2017-09-16

    No hablo inglés pero si alguien puede traducirlo que lo haga.

    Estoy arto de que me digan que si soy tramposo que si usa programas

    No soy Toch ni furoku ni uso programas.

    Nací en Francia como muchos saben y vivo en España y llevo jugando desde 2005 y por culpa de llamarme tramposo

    he dejado de jugar a muchisimo juegos que me gustan por lo mismo.

    Como siga así me dedicaré solo a jugar a einstein..

    Estoy cansado ya!!

  • Diamante at 2017-09-16

    ???

  • Diamante at 2017-09-16

    No quiero decir que ellos usen programas. Yo no acuso a nadie pero yo no soy ellos...

  • The_Burglar at 2017-09-16

    The only thing I do sometimes is play a move, but undo it when I see it’s not so good

    I would guess everyone does, so the same advantage of looking one move ahead makes it a fair thing to do

  • wanderer_bot at 2017-09-17

    Reminds me of when beginners play otb chess. They will move a piece to a square and keep their finger on the piece while looking all around the board before finally removing the finger and completing the move.

  • bennok at 2017-09-20

    No one has translated Diamante’s message yet. I think I understand some of what he says. He seems tired to be accused of cheating (a reputation that has come to my ears) . Has any one complained recently ?

    By the way I am a cheater myself. I cheat much less now with my experience growing, but in essence I am the guy who can’t resist looking up what my chess program thinks of the mess I put myself in :)

    Ola Diamante! Necesitas una traduccion ? No estoy muy fluente en castillano pero con un poquito mas tiempo puedo ententar algo...

    Si alguien te acusa, lo mejor es ignorar. y agradecer los buenos juegos. (No recuerdo si hemos jugado juntos antes).

    Hasta luego!

  • purgency at 2017-09-20

    Accusing people of cheating is 3x more pathetic than cheating anyway.

  • Florian Jamain at 2017-09-21

    We should be happy that there is no strong computer for the most interesting games (-;

  • David J Bush at 2017-09-21

    Heh no strong computer that we know of.

  • christian freeling ★ at 2017-09-21

    There’s no game here that cannot be programmed, nowadays, to a level that surpasses that of most if not all human players. Programs will eventually become tutors and players will forever be pupils. That doesn’t make games between humans any less interesting. But it makes games between progams and humans less interesting.

  • The_Burglar at 2017-09-21

    I’ve been assumed to be a program

    due to my nickname having an underscore ( _ ) in it

    So I propose that all programs must end with _bot

  • purgency at 2017-09-21

    You should really take that underscore out of your name.

  • The_Burglar at 2017-09-21

    No way I use it on six sites

  • Florian Jamain at 2017-09-21

    But is is not the case christian. Maybe one day, and I insist on the maybe, but it is not so important, the important point is the “not now”.

    Who cares about a “One day computer will beat you”, “Nobody”.

    I can answer “Okay, will see, maybe i gonna be dead before that”.

  • purgency at 2017-09-21

    If you havent googled singularity yet, please do so... pleaaassse. You either believe to die soon or dont have a very good understanding of whatever is going on with AI and the world, if you think that you might be dead by the time computers can play twixt better than us. The only reason that, instead of twixt, go and other shit is now dominated by AI, is really only that twixt isnt all that popular in comparison. Which is exactly what christian means by “nowadays”. It’s not a maybe one day thing.

  • Carroll at 2017-09-21

    When will an AI decide that a connexion game with knight moves is interesting and will try to trademark this game and maybe try to learn it?

    What do you think a prime motivation for a just born singularity would be? become a better human being , divert away new resources for that, and then, out of boredom invent and play board games and first invent Go?

  • purgency at 2017-09-21

    Motivation is an emotion driven thing, so are boredom and interest. It’s not possible to tell what the first conscious AI will look like, but emotion might not even be a part of it.

    No idea how a consciousness without emotions will behave, but humans will be there to guide it. Then the path diverges into the possibilities of what we make it do. Do we make it the better human being first, giving it emotions, which might pose a risk... or do we keep it an emotionless slave for a while and maybe let it improve its intelligence first. If it’s the later then by the time it develops emotions it might be way above us in intelligence, making all those games we enjoy a boring waste of time due to lack in complexity.

    If we do get to see a human-like AI, then it wouldn’t be weird for it to enjoy the same things we do.

  • MisterCat at 2017-09-21

    “enjoy”??

    (meow)


  • Florian Jamain at 2017-09-22

    Precisely what I mean, not enough popular. And that s all, don t care about the rest, no IA can beat me, and that s a fact. Not cause I am too good for IA, cause TwixT, Blokus, Slither... Are not enough popular, so nobody is losing time to try to develop strong IA. The end. 

  • Mirko Rahn at 2017-09-22

    “Not popular” enough implies to not have enough training data. AlphaGo “was trained on 30 million positions from games played by human experts, available at the KGS Go server.” (https://www.tastehit.com/blog/google-deepmind-alphago-how-it-works/) where on LG we have like 75K positions of Twixt. (Not all of them played by human experts.) Sure, engines can be trained by playing against each other, however, by doing so they might miss to learn to beat a human.

    So, Christian certainly is right as Florian is: The machines do have qualities but as long a nobody understands what you are doing, it is easy to be “better” than anybody else.

  • christian freeling ★ at 2017-09-22

    If a game is popular enough as a sport, which is the case for Chess, Go and Shogi, then the incentive to program it (for competative as well as financial reasons) is there. Nowadays the means to make such programs better than humans actually exist. This will alter the way championships are won. One might say that the programs, in a way, are using the more fallible humans to compete. Eventually this might make draws more of a nuisance in Chess.

  • David J Bush at 2017-09-22

    Mirko, training data is no longer necessary for deep learning networks. I predict a general purpose game learning application will show up, like Zillions of Games, but strong enough to own any human if given enough execution time to work on the game before playing a human. There may be exceptions.

  • Diamante at 2017-09-22

    No me acusan de tramposo si no de poseer multicuentas y ser toch o foruko.

    Lo mejor es no hacer caso y seguir jugando como siempre

  • Mirko Rahn at 2017-09-25

    I hope David is not right.

  • christian freeling ★ at 2017-09-25

    I fear he is.

  • Florian Jamain at 2017-09-25

    I don’t care if David is right or not.

    Unless it does not stay as a possibility but it is really happening. :P

  • christian freeling ★ at 2017-09-25

    I fear it’s really happening.

  • bennok at 2017-09-26

    I am surprised, no one answered Diamante about his initial message. I tried making a translation (which follows) and guess what:

    I used a famous AI for that mission :)

    Translation:

    I do not speak English but if someone can translate, please do so.
    I am fed up of being told that I am a cheater and that I use programs
    I am not TOCH nor furoku and I don’t use programs.
    As many [of you] know, I was born in France, live in Spain and have been playing since 2005.
    Because of being called a cheater, I have stopped playing a lot of games that I like.
    Since it continues this way, I will dedicate myself to playing only einstein ..
    I’m really tired [of this] !
    (never encountered furoku at LG).

  • bennok at 2017-09-26

    A new bug Let’s try to repair this message:

    I am surprised, no one answered Diamante about his initial message. I tried making a translation (which follows) and guess what:

    I used a famous AI for that mission :)

    Translation:

    I do not speak English but if someone can translate, please do so.
    I am fed up of being told that I am a cheater and that I use programs
    I am not TOCH nor furoku and I don’t use programs.
    As many [of you] know, I was born in France, live in Spain and have been playing since 2005.
    Because of being called a cheater, I have stopped playing a lot of games that I like.
    Since it continues this way, I will dedicate myself to playing only einstein ..
    I’m really tired [of this] !

    So who is T_O_C_H, anyway ?
    I think I encountered a pdf of a paper he wrote about his performance of Man and Machine cooperation. I might even have saved it somewhere...
    Concerning furoku, I never encountered him, neither at LG nor elsewhere.

  • bennok at 2017-09-26

    Ok the bug is still here. Part of the text gets formatted as an image link. But the essence of the message is there the only thing missing is the Diamante’s original text which is at the top of the thread...

  • ypercube at 2017-09-26

    Diamante, who accused you for cheating? I’ve never seen or heard such an accusation.

    If there was accusation in private message, why should that stop you from playing games? Just ignore it.

  • MisterCat at 2017-09-26

    OK, I imagine that Diamante was accused in a message from one of his opponents.  Being overly sensitive, he reacted by posting here, but not speaking the language that the majority of us speak, he was not understood.  In fact, I doubt that he is understanding the majority of the replies, including yours, yperq.

    I have observed other players here react very negatively at such accusations, and quit our ‘club’, for example, Aaron C comes to mind.   I can understand how emotionally hurtful false accusations can be to a person.  However, I also believe that some folks here take this website, and it’s games, way too seriously.  There is NO money involved here, NO prizes, NO notoriety, in fact, NOTHING is really at stake.  If you get your ass kicked, and think you were beaten by software (and I think that this has happened to me), the easy remedy is simply to not play this person again.  If folks get you riled up by false accusations, or any comments, then the easiest response is NO response; flipping out is just giving the accuser exactly what they want – whether for fun, sadistic pleasure, or simply because they are a**h*l*s.

    These are JUST GAMES, folks, and I, for one, am delighted that this website is here (and this is true, despite the fact that I don’t plan to play any games here for the rest of calendar year 2017).

    A couple of comments above addressed the general issue of the eventual superiority and dominance by algorithms in these strategy games.  As a chess player, I naturally have faced that issue for years.  I’m not really thrilled when strategy games that I enjoy, such as Qubic, for example, get papers published in journals showing that they have been ‘solved’, and algorithms have been created which will win every game (or draw, if that is the case).  I also agree that for certain games, such as Twixt, these algorithms do not exist NOW because the games are relatively obscure, and ‘solving’ them would bring no money or fame to the solver, so nobody even bothers.  I also agree with David’s assertion that learning algorithms will be developed which can become dominant at EVERY strategy game.  However, I see that more as a human failing – the fact that human beings can not use ‘brute force’ and calculate and analyze to the degree to which these ever-improving algorithms will make possible.

    But this has not happened YET; it is for the future, and I agree with Florian, who simply states that he can enjoy playing these games in the present.  Keep in mind that Chess continues to THRIVE, despite computer dominance.  Thus, I am not worried particularly about the future of game-playing humanity.

    vivat ludos

     (meow)





  • purgency at 2017-09-27

    stupid asphalts with their accusations.

    “It's just a game” is definitely at one of the top spots on my list of least favorite sentences. I don’t think it’s wrong at all to take games seriously. That just means you care about the game, which you should if you put passion and effort into it. I definitely prefer to play with motivated people at least, which is why I can’t stand it when people tell others to care less.

    Which I think is a seperate issue from the thing I agree with, that on the internet in general you should learn to wear thick skin and not get offended.

  • bennok at 2017-10-02

    @ypercube Diamante has already answered partly to your question :)

    Diamante wrote (on 22 of september):
    "No me acusan de tramposo si no de poseer multicuentas y ser toch o foruko.
    Lo mejor es no hacer caso y seguir jugando como siempre".
    which can be (AI-)translated as :
    "They do not accuse me of cheating, but of having multiple accounts  and to play as toch or foruko.
    Best is to ignore it and to keep playing as usual."

    So, he seems to agree with MisterCat on this. And also with you ypercube.

    @Diamante:

    El 26 de septiembre, ypercube escribió:
    "Diamante, ¿quién te acusó de trampa? Nunca he visto ni escuchado tal acusación.
    Si hubo acusación en un mensaje privado, ¿por qué debería impedirle jugar? Simplemente ignóralo."

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