Go rules: 3 passes or 2? General forum
13 replies. Last post: 2004-08-28Reply to this topic Return to forum
Spam Victim at 2004-08-18
There seems to be a problem with the rules on this server. I already mentioned it to the webmaster, but I thought it might be worth discussing on the forum, too. The problem is that, with the 2-passes-ends-the-game rule, you can get away with not filling a ko. This actually happened to me recently in a tournament game, emil_miga vs. Spam Victim. It didn’t actually matter, because I had more than 1 point to spare, but it could potentially mean the difference between winning and losing.
What does everyone think? It doesn’t seem right to me, but there are a lot of arguments you can put for both sides.
Crelo at 2004-08-18
You can resume playing after two passes, so you can fill the ko if you realise this after one mistaken pass.
Spam Victim at 2004-08-18
Can you really resume after both players have passed? How? By refusing to accept the score?
Eduard at 2004-08-18
you can make a valid move :) and send it!
Spam Victim at 2004-08-22
I’m confused by these 2 responses. Maybe I haven’t made myself clear.
Here’s what I mean: Let’s say white has a ko that he has to fill. He has plenty of ko threats, and black has none. There are no dame. There are no other endgame moves left. Black takes the ko. White makes a threat and recaptures the ko. Now black can only pass. Then white passes and the game is over. And the ko remains unfilled, so white has one extra point.
...unless, as you say, the game can be resumed somehow.
Crelo at 2004-08-22
You are very clear :-)
The game is not finished after two passes. Instead of clicking “Count game” just make a move on the board, the game will continue.
Thomas at 2004-08-22
Is black, in this example, allowed to capture the ko after two passes?
Black has no threats and no dame, and capturing causes a repetition of a previous situation.
Gregorlo at 2004-08-22
according to japanese rules, all kos must be filled. Anyway, in littlegolem (and most servers) you can take because you made a move last turn (a pass).
Eduard at 2004-08-23
Spam Victim, after black passes, white must fill the ko.
Imagine that black recaptures, white makes a ko threat, black passes and white recaptures again. You end in the same position, only white with -1 ko threat. So, to not waste you and your opp. time, white allways has to fill (in this specific moment of the game) the ko after black pass.
Gregorlo at 2004-08-23
Eduard, not as easy as it seems, under japanese after go seigen it was not considered under rules. Indeed, after two passes the games ended. And passing was not a ko threat. Newspapers stated: Go Seigen wins by two or three points. Anyway, i think japanese people like this kind of ‘imperfection’ in the rules as well in pottery or painting (just my opinion)
Spam Victim at 2004-08-24
Firstly: Eduard, I think you’ve misunderstood. It doesn’t happen that way. Black recaptures, white makes a threat, black answers, white recaptures, and now black must pass, because he has no other move whatsoever. The only alternative is to play a move in his own territory, or a non-threatening move in white’s territory. Either way he will lose a point. So he must pass. Now proper conduct dictates that white should fill the ko, but he can just pass instead, and this ends the game.
Secondly: Crelo, I realise now that I’ve never actually played a game where I was the first player to pass, so I’ve never seen that “Count Game” option you mention. That explains everything. Thanks.
Spam Victim at 2004-08-26
Incidentally, notice that under the Chinese rules this is a perfectly legitimate way for white to gain a point... as long as he can keep the ko alive until the dame are all filled.
Crelo at 2004-08-28
I just checked in a game, even if your opponent counted the score, instead of accepting the result you can just make a move on the board and the game will continue. So two passes doesn’t finish the game.