A few weeks ago there was a discussion about first moves and swapping. I'd like to generate more discussion about strategy, especially for relative beginners like me who would like to improve to the next level.

How about shapes or certain placements that create strength? Beyond the bridge between two stones, I haven't found much on the Internet.

What else do you consider when playing a game?

Thanks,

Rex

Rex,

See the thread in this forum on Cameron Browne's book.

All the best.

–Herb

Ok, here comes the impertinent one again (me).

Ahem. I propose creating a wiki just for Hex strategy. If no-one else absolutely craves making the necessary arrangements, I will. If someone thinks this is a really ass-bad idea, then that doesn't bother me in the least. Apparently there is at least a moderate demand for Hex strategy discussion on the web, and that suffices for me.

There. I said it. Let the bashing begin. ;)

Yes!

I've been missing some discussions about strategy in this forum. I started one once, and got lots of replies, but then it died out. But let's give it another try.

What's to consider? Well, openings, ofcourse. We've already had a little discussion about that. And balance, perhaps. When should you try to have equal strength on both sides of the board, and when should you “go for it”, and try to get across on one side. I say balance in the beginning.

There's the issue of ladders, ofcourse. When should you break them? When should you “change the lane” (check out my latest game agains Jason, where I “changed lane” in the uppermost ladder one step too late). I say usually it's better to break the ladders as soon as possible, but obviously that's not a general rule.

For newbies I've got some simple advice: The centre is usually more important than the edges. Often it is better to make a broad front, than attacking deep with a thin front. And a move that gives you a little strength in both directions is usually a better move than that which gives you much strength in just one direction.

Finally: If you can make a connection to one edge, be careful how you do it. Often it's better to make many moves and get valuable stones, than just taking the shorter path. There are usually several options which keeps your path open.

In the future, I suggest we find illustrative examples in previous games. I've sometimes been able to see when the losing move has been made, although against good players, that's sometimes rather hard.

Hope this thread will get lots of replies!

Marius

As Marius's post indicates, this is a very broad topic, perhaps too broad for a single thread. A wiki sounds like a good idea; perhaps the wiki at BoardGameGeek would suffice. In brief, here are the principles I consider most important to apply, when looking for the right Hex move:

\* Play the whole board. Don't let your opponent lead you around by the nose. Just because you put some pieces down does not mean they have to be part of the final path.

\* With each move you should strive to make as many threats as you can, or defend as many threats as you can.

\ In the opening, good players tend to spread their influence around the board like pizza dough. It is generally* not good to concentrate your pieces in a single area, as this usually leaves “gaps in the dough” someplace else, which your opponent might use against you.

Perhaps more specific issues could start another thread.

David: As for using the existing wiki, there is a number of pros and cons, the way I see it. Let me list some off the top of my head:

Pros:

\* I (or anyone else) won't have to maintain a separate wiki just for Hex. Saves time and admin effort, and centralizes information.

\* Hex is a board game, so in a way it's logical for information about Hex to be collected in a wiki called BoardGameWiki.

\* Since this wiki is already extant and kicking, there's in principle nothing that prevents the people reading this thread from going there right away and contributing material about Hex. Type away!

Cons:

\* Whatever the limitations of BoardGameWiki, the content we choose to add there is restricted by those. (Note that I haven't looked deeper into what those limitations might be, or how it would affect us. They might, and they might not.) The rest of the points in this list are special cases of this point.

\* Though the information will probably be copylefted or equivalent, in the spirit of wikis in general, it doesn't reside with us at littlegolem in the sense that it's at somebody else's server. If (when) BoardGameWiki folds, there's a brief time when the information is (partly) available through the Google cache and (partly) mirrorable, and then it's gone. In contrast, I offer a server holding the wiki and all the contents.

\* What every good hex tutorial hinges on, in my humble opinion, is good, descriptive pictures. Since BoardGameWiki is not specifically designed to support the Hex board, adding pictures of boards and positions might be more cumbersome than for a tailor-made wiki. For your information, I have made a not-yet-published XML namespace just for this purpose. Making stylesheets to convert such XML data to SVG or any other image format would be quite practical in many situations. Writing the XML data itself would not be difficult either.

\* I personally is much more interested in Hex specifically than in board games in general, therefore a Hex wiki would be more of interest to me than a board game wiki.

Everyone: comments on this would be greatly appreciated.

I personally am much more interested, not I is. Ouch.

Just testing: Will this thread become visible if I reply to it?

It works! Now reply to all the other threads please. ;))

I'm interested in hex strategy also, I would be happy to help with ideas if anyone is interested..I think the opening is probably the least important thing to concentrate on though, because I really don't think there is much anyone can say with certainty about the opening. Even if someone plays a slightly stronger opening move, there is still so much time in 13x13 to catch up and still win for the other player. Tactics is probably the most important thing to focus on…About breaking ladders though….I've never found a general rule about breaking them earlier rather than later or vice versa. The most important place to break a ladder is wherever you can get some more of your pieces involved from other parts of the board, because then you will have more options

Excellent, excellent replies… thank you! Reading over them brings the following questions:

Marius Halsør: >

So, would you explain here what you mean by keeping a broad front? Would the end result of this phase result in a cluster of stones rather than a long line of them?

David J Bush: »

When you say play the whole board, does that mean playing far enough away from your opponent's immediate threats so that you are assured of blocking them?

Sounds similar to playing the whole board, and I'm guessing there is no specific shape to this. Are there certain areas where influence is more important… like the corners, perhaps?

I'll stop for now, thanks. ;-)

Rex

By a “broad front” I mean, for example, if your playing N/S, that you have a line going E/W. This line is a “broad front” in a N/S perspective.

As for important stones - I'll try doing this by text, but it's easier t show on a board. Take your position, and make imaginary bridges towards the nearest “pointy” corner. If that bridge ends with a stone at the b1 position (if you're E/W), that could probably be a good stone. So, d3 and e4 are “good stones” for an E/W player. Does anyone else agree?

Marius

Marius

> When you say play the whole board, does that mean playing

> far enough away from your opponent's immediate threats so

> that you are assured of blocking them?

Well no, that's not what I mean, although that might be one way of doing it. What I mean is, take the entire board situation into consideration when you move. Don't just react locally to whatever your opponent does.

> «<\* In the opening, good players tend to spread their

> influence around the board like pizza dough.»>

> Sounds similar to playing the whole board, and I'm

> guessing there is no specific shape to this. Are there

> certain areas where influence is more important… like the

> corners, perhaps?

Perhaps I should try to explain what I mean by influence. It's the potential to make threats. Open board space is a resource that you need to use efficiently. Usually the player who uses it more efficiently will win. In the opening, good players will try to make the each other's task as difficult as possible. Against such an opponent, it will be impossible to cut straight across. The more influence you stake out in the opening, the more ways you will have to find a winning path. So, the result is the pieces will usually spread out around the board in the first 8 to 10 moves (4 or 5 by each player). Corners are certainly important, but I hesitate to say they are more or less important than anywhere else.

Marius, why is b1 stronger than a1, which could actually be part of a winning chain?

Sorry, don't know why some text is getting deleted. This is what I was referring to:

“Take your position, and make imaginary bridges towards the nearest “pointy” corner. If that bridge ends with a stone at the b1 position (if you're E/W), that could probably be a good stone. So, d3 and e4 are “good stones” for an E/W player.”

b1 is part of a winning chain too. It's adjecent to both a1 and a2, and thus it cannot be stopped from reaching the edge.

Marius

It would be nice to have a small site with pictures of all the beginner templates so it would be easy to show newbies. It could show bridges, ladders, the trapezoid from the third row, and other things like that. Maybe some of us even know some by instinct that other advanced players wouldn't even see. I would do it myself if I knew the first thing about programming… It would be nice to get on the same page as everyone.

Marius, and or Jan

You asked if a thread would become visable, jan said it worked. Am I missing something here? All I am seeing is one forum. Are there branches from particular messages other than pointer to say a particular game?

Prior to this forum, I had never heard the term 'wiki'. I glean it is a discussion form. Is this so, or is there some variation from a discussion forum?

If there are branches from th emiddle of this forum, how do I get to them?

Perhaps I suffered a stroke recently, Marius might think so. But if I am missing something, I would like to remedy it. Is it some new option here?

And what is BoardGameWiki, is this a site?

I feel soooooo confused!

Well, I can't help you about the Wiki. What I CAN do, is explain the “does the thread get visible” message.

Some days ago, for no apparent reason, all the threads seemingly disappeared from the HEX-forum. However, it was still possible to reach them by typing the correct address in the address bar. I also noticed that someone was able to start a new thread, that showed in the forum. I therefore suspected that if I replied to a “hidden” thread, that it would become visible again. And it did!

It seems to me that the original error is actually not yet fixed. I guess it doesn't matter, though, as all the interresting threads have been revived.

As for your reference to your little “accident” in our last game - hey, it happens to everyone! Or perhaps not David, I'm not sure… :-)

Marius

actually, i do remember seeing david make a mistake once….game number 50926 david actually blew a win!!! move number 30.H7 was a losing move when he had a win with F10. and after i had almost resigned the game a couple moves earlier too!!

A wiki is a web site where anyone (or in some cases registered users) can edit any page. So you can consider it a discussion board with the structure of a web site. An example is Sensei's Library which is a wiki for go.

I think it's an excellent idea to create a wiki for hex. Today there aren't really any pages on the Internet which discuss hex strategy beyond the beginners' level.

I'm sure there are several potential contributers only here at Little Golem.

Thank you, Taral! This is the kind of feedback I expected. A bit more like that from the rest of you, and I might actually set up the wiki. :)

I would also help as much as I can. I have some ideas of strategy, but I couldn't help on the programming part…

Thx, Tray, again just what I wanted to hear. Don't worry about the programming part, that's what I'm here for. :) I do that for a living. (And, as you notice, for fun.)

A wiki sounds like a great idea.

A couple of thoughts;

A few things might make it go a bit smoother.

I noticed that I can right click on a game board here, and collect the image as a jpeg.

If creating a wiki, allow jpeg pasting. Ease of use by non-programmers will be the key to success. The ideal situation would be full text, with color and jpeg pasting. Multiple columns would also help. Text to the side of a shrunken jpeg is more effective than that same text beneath that same image.

The site should be set up so that none of the original input becomes the intelectual property of any individual. Caveates should be prominant where anyone might be inclined to use someone elses intelectual property. i.e. Using anything from Camaron Browns book should be verboten, unless specific permissions are given.

Likewise, all original input should be considered public domain so that anyone could use it in their own publications.

As those who know me might remember, I have always thought that common situations deserve names. Some already have names. Ladder, gate, Hungarian etc. Newest I can think of would be Tom's move.

Naming situations will be key to advancing Hex Theory. For those who have followed any threads thru Ken Walkers site JHEX, will know, describing situation by stone placement/order is bulky at best. 8 move openings with a simple name will be easier to follow once it has a name.

Definitions, will be necessary. So footnote or highlight linking to a definition page will be usefull.

I know this sounds picky, and it is. But the goal is a good one, one long needed. We know what Hex is, we know it is more than a simple game, we know it deserves more. If this wiki thing gets done wrong, it could do more harm than good.

A hex wiki project might be just the project I need to learning moderning programming languages. I gave up programming after doing great in Fortran, and Pascal. Then I hit Cobol. Drove me nuts, quit programming and got into hardware.

Now I am back to my roots, which is physical labor. Oddly, after the magic glow of the new technologies wore off, I found I missed fixing, building, and finishing construction stuff.

Still love hex tho….

A gate? Is that another name for a triangle? I guess this is exactly your point. but… what's a gate?

My point, EXACTLY !

Besides the simple terms like grid spots, we are stymied by a lack of concensus in even the simplest concepts of the game.

Tray and I had discussed the possibility of writing a book. His strategy is clearly a step above. Or was at one time. But if we dont have a common 'language about what we are talking about, then we suffer the babylon of misunderstanding.

As a group, we could make a very significant leap forward for the game simply by compiling a HEX dictionary.. Complete with pictures.

The alternative is to verbaly create long strings of grid points describing board setups.

This isn't too bad for openings, but after the 3rd or 4th move each, it gets tiresome, which leads to disinterest.

I8-E6-E4-F4-E5-F5-G2 describes a very common opening sequence. For some odd reasons I long ago (3+ years) tagged this the Hungarian opening. Over time the name has gained some excetance.

Rather than discussing a situation 4 or 5 moves further along it becomes easier to start the discussion perhaps like this;

Hungarian openeing,H2-G3— ladder/ break to G7-H6-G6-F7-F6-D8…

This is more understandable, at least to me. A tool like JHEX helps a bunch, but common terminology would make it more interesting.

The terminology above has some history, though the Hungarian is not precisly defined. I use it mainly as an example.

Ladders are only loosly defined. A ladder can be 2 rungs long, or 12.

A gate on the other hand is much more ridgedly defined.

There are other 'formations' which need names. Some small, some large.

I am not well versed in Chess, but I believe many of the openings are named after the person who used the opening in this tourney or that.

Many, maybe even most of the unnamed situations in hex have long since passed the point of remembering who should get credit for first usage. So as a group we can have fun naming some of them.

Imagine trying to understand mathmatics, without a definition of what a number is.

As a Hex vocabulary evolves, I predict the understanding, and creativeness of solutions will increase.

David tends to borrow concepts about the game from GO. I favor the 'stones and pips' notation from backgammon. But than can only go so far. Many other games will have names that will work.

And getting ECO involved in a wiki on hex would be invaluable.

I made a mistake. I mentioned the JHEX site was Ken Walkers. It is Kevin O'Gormans.

http://hex.kosmanor.com/hex-bin/board/

I am also very interested in hex tactics and strategy and was even thinking of writing a book at one point. I particularly enjoy reading David's thoughtful comments and I would like to participate as well.

Cheers, Bill

I haven't seen mention of my on-line hex strategy guide in three parts.

http://remus.rutgers.edu/~rhoads/Fun/hex.basic

http://remus.rutgers.edu/~rhoads/Fun/hex.intermed

http://remus.rutgers.edu/~rhoads/Fun/hex.advanced

IMO, it is the best hex strategy guide available on the net. It does contain

some things that I've never seen written down anywhere else; for example,

you won't find the “minimax principle” nor the “parallel ladder trick” in

Cameron Browne's book (note: the minimax principle has nothing to do

with minimax search).

My strategy guide will not be available at the above site for much longer

so if interested, get it while you can. I hope to resurrect the guide at

wherever I eventually end up though this might not happen until the

fall of 2004.

Also, I have a graphical page of the common edge templates up to row 5 at

(great for printing!)(I borrowed/stole the graphics from somebody else :-) )

http://remus.rutgers.edu/~rhoads/Fun/Templates/templates.html

dj, thanks for your extensive feedback. Do I understand you correctly in that you'd like to participate in building this wiki? Is it ok if I contact you via mail?

woodpusher, I agree that your three-part tutorial is the best one online. Get it while you can, all you who haven't read it! I have a printout in my office.

I actually have a few new Hex concepts of my own which I have seen people use strategically, but never heard them refer to. The most important concept is lurking, which has helped my game a lot (both in beating opponents and in seeing where I went wrong). But more about that in the wiki. ;)

Thanks for the credit for Jhex, but it wasn't me. Jhex is

the creation of Kevin Walker.

I'm the guy who's doing OHex, a very different kettle of fish.

I'm delighted that a friend just told me about this forum and

thread, because I haven't been paying attention here for a long time. I have, however, been thinking about hex strategy

and tactics.

I think I know a lot more about tactics than strategy, but

it's hard to tell because the distinction is a bit blurry.

In any event, I've been using my own names for tactical

situations for quite some time, and think it helps in

several ways. I find it easier to remember an idea about

something that has a name than about a specific arrangement

of hexes, for instance.

I have started to name templates. BTW, earlier in this

thread I thought someone was calling for a library of

templates when one already exists. There's an excellent

collection on drking's web page, with more than 85 of the

beasts.

So here are two names for consideration. We already have

the “2-bridge”, immortalized by Cameron. I think the next

most common and useful one is the “temple” (I actually call

it the “ziggurat” but that may be asking too much):

v -

- - -

- - - -

The shape reminds me of a mesoamerican temple.

There is also “the arch”

- v -

- - - -

- - - -

I think I know what a “gate” is. It is often

played in a situation where the alternative is

what I call a “slide” – a one-skip at an angle

to the opponents side. The tactics seem to be

that the slide is good if it aims at the b1 hex

when playing H (or lower: a1, a2, etc). Otherwise,

the gate, to attempt to block, is usually best played

as early as possible. That's my contribution to

tactics for today.

I

Oops. I didn't know whitespace got clobbered so badly here.

Let me try again. Dots are for spacing only

Temple/ziggurat:

..v -

.- - -

- - - -

Arch:

..- v -

.- - - -

- - x - -

Where it does not matter what's at 'x'

(Testing font)

V -

- - -

- - - -

How's that?

kogorman, I really like 'ziggurat' as a name for the (very common) third-row template. Is it ok if lazy people call it a 'zig'? ;)

I, too, find it much easier to relate to situations that I've identified and named. Having a set of common terms will only further improve the value of the game. Hex forever!

V -

 - - -

- - - -

So, already we have an agreement. We need named situations, and many of those names already exist. However, we need to gather them together for easy reference, and toward the end that we all use the same terminology. If I understand this correctly, a wiki would work well toward that end. and rather than that difficult task of keeping track of dashes and spaces and V's, H's and x's, that graphics/text idea needs to fly.

Since there seems to be a fairly large energy aimed at this concept, lets approach it en masse.

Will this wiki be directly associated with Lil Golem, i.e. using its servers. Or can we just link to it from LG, in a very easy fashion. Or will it be another soloist site, like many others, that finds only a limited audience.

Does anyone know of an existing text graphis editor that will solve our problem, or will one of the ace programmers that play here have too write a whole new editor. An existing editor than could be modified might be the fastest solution.

Freeware or shareware .

Its a start….

Dennis

As stated, that ace programmer would be me, unless someone is even acier. :) However, the more people who are in on this, the easier and more rewarding the work will be for whomever takes the main responsibility.

Thank you for the message, dj. I will contact you by email. I have also written a message to Richard, asking for his feedback.

I don't quite understand what kind of program you are thinking about, dj.

I think the best way for making graphics is to allow the editors to write ascii diagrams with V, H etc. when editing a page. Then png diagrams magically appear in the wiki based on the ascii diagrams.

As I understand it, a wiki is for online, inline realtime changes to the page. The ease of the flow of thought will be important to us none programmers.

If I want to share my thoughts about hex, it will be a serious drag to have to learn HTML, or whatever just to say,

“no, but if you move Vertical to xy like this ; (insert diagram or picture here), blah blah blah”.

The trick will be to make this inclusive. Many of the players here do know programming. Many do not. The wiki will be about HEX, not programming.

Good point, dj. I use wikipedia a lot, and get to edit a couple pages now and then. According to me, their editing system is simple and parsimonious, and we could emulate their design choices in many cases.

For example, the issue of adding images could be solved by prepending each line with a special character (like '/' or something) to indicate that it is to be parsed by the wiki as an image. Every image-related line would then be preceded by this character. Add to that a dynamic refencing system (like in TeX, for those of you who've used it), and you actually have somthing usable. ;)

Oh, and here you can read more about editing Wikipedia pages, and how intuitive it is.

Kevin O'Gorman wrote:

I have started to name templates. BTW, earlier in this

thread I thought someone was calling for a library of

templates when one already exists. There's an excellent

collection on drking's web page, with more than 85 of the

beasts.

What is the URL please?

Here is the link:

Hex templates

I really like the idea af a wiki, at least if it is what it seems like to me. Also, I'd like to build up and eventually exchange JHex files (I have very few games in JHex so far).

About naming situations: Obviously a good idea, but we must keep in mind that Hex is played on boards of many different sizes. This will pose a problem to which we must find a solution.

Marius

Hex board sizes!

Ah yes. Depending on where the wiki is at home, we might want to preface our comments with the first thing being board size, or maybe a check off area where we could pick board size, site url (if useful), file type (if usefull)

At this time Playsite is the only site I know of offering multiple board sizes. Kurnic is 10, LG is 13.

I have thought for a long time that tactics are local, and strategy is global. So a gate is a tactic, and the hungarian opening is a strategy. For that simple example, I like my thinking.

Small boards tend to be more tactical, and bigger boards strategic. See David's comments above and he seems to be more globally oriented then I am.

Marius, and for that matter everyone. You should check out the Ohex board that Kevin runs. At times it can get quite lively.

On a lighter side, we should give ourselves the authority to name, democratically if necessary, common templates and other concepts. We do this thing because it is necessary. Any original thinker does retain the right, if he so pleases, to name the concept. However if he (or she) presents the concept without name, then all hell breaks loose till it somehow obtains one. Obviously not all concepts deserve names.

As for the wiki editor issue. I think the success or failure of the wiki, might rest with the ease of use. Rather than an x's and O's type simple display, a colorful image with game quality graphics at least close to LG's is what I suggest.

As I mentioned earlier, I discovered that I can right click on a gameboard here at Lil, and collect the image for any purpose I want. I can email it to myself, I can copy it and hopefully be able to past it on the wiki page. This is where scalability of size might be real nice.

I should be quiet this evening. I am tired beyond ratioanl thought.

As for right-clicking on images, I suspect that this is a feature of the user's browser and not the homepage.

Regarding ease of use, I agree wholeheartedly. I have messaged to dj and Taral (who had written to me and said that they want to participate in the creation of the wiki) references to the applications I am thinking of using for the wiki. If anyone else is interested (either in participating, or getting the references, or both), feel free to let me know.

I will participate.

DJ, I dont think of an opening sequence as either a tactic or a strategy, its just a sequence of commonly used moves. David's comments are surely about strategy, also the Minmax Principle is a fundamental strategy.

Cheers, Bill

Four volunteers, and counting. :)

I'd be glad to help with what I can… but I don't know the first thign about programming or anything… I just know how to win

I don't even know that, but if I can help in any way, I'd be more than happy to do so.

Marius

I know a bit of programming, and will help where I can.

I'm not a great designer by any means (OHex still looks

crude to me, and I don't know how to fix it), but that

aside, I can help.

haha Marius, actually I think you are beating me right now

i would be glad if i could help in any way

…and eight and counting. Wow! Does anyone mind if I set up a mailing list for the volunteers? I'm positively surprised by the increasing number of interested; however it's quickly becoming unmanagable with just in-lg messages.

sure, if you start a mailing list my e-mail is traydedrickson@hotmail.com, just let me know how i can help

Please count me in.

–Herb

herbdoughty@sbcglobal.net

Count me too: kevin@hex.kosmanor.com

na_wspak@o2.pl - im in if u dont mind:)

I am not a mathematician and not a programmer, but I would be happy to help if I can. I am Ludohex@aol.com

Okie dokie. I will set up the list as soon as possible. (: Those of you who don't feel as comfortable writing their email addresses in a public forum, feel free to message it to me instead. :)

Count my eight cubes too.

OK, looks like there is enought interest to get this thing going. Having NOT done anything like this before, but not affraid to jump right in, it looks like what we need firss are just 2 things.

The first is a home. Where will this thing reside. With it being global, 24/7 is necessary. Could we have a revolving server? For those who dont follow my reinvented language, that revolving server idea might be where Sweden has it in the morning, then california has it in the morning, then australia has it in the morning, etc. I have no clue whether this is possible.

I have a cable connection, but only one PC. I could not have it on 24/7 and expect peace and harmony at home. However, I could perhaps have it on for a few hours each day. Again, I have no clue if this is possible. Also, my ISP does not provide me a homepage. Else I would donate it

Second is the platform. Where will the wiki live?

In my mind the site has a pretty first page, with as much explanation as necessary, and then buttons or links to the pages. I have sort of an interest in the naming conventions. It has long been my notion that the more names we give situations, the faster the game will evolve. So one of the links/buttons would be to Terminology. Since Kevin has probably the largest, by far, database of Hex games played, a link to his database is a given, assuming he is agreeable.

A 'How to Use' button would tell that.

The meat of the wiki would be the discussions of the game itself, both general, and specific games. Specific situations common to many games, which would get new names.

To be clear about this, it has been tried before. Thougt the wiki thing is a new twist. There once was a Matregshexclub at yahoo. I cant find it anymore.

A LINKS button would reference everthing we can find on Hex, and anything related to the wiki.

What else do we need to move this along. ?