Currently, there are at least two bots playing in the championship at level 2. I stronly oppose entering bots in the championship in Hex. The championship should, in my opinion, be for human players only. There are plenty of other opportunities to test the bots and play them against human opponents. I urge the creators of bots to remove them from the championship, and have them play other tournaments instead.

Does anyone else support my position in this matter?

I have no problems with bots, I have played against bot in havannah tournament(s), and I find it quite interesting to play against bots. As they often play in very different style. (though another part I liked playing against havannah bot is that I won, though my rating is quite low, while bot had considerably larger rating. This possibly shows that some of stronger players maybe have problems countering bot's play style?). Anyway, couple bots between mostly humans does not seem to be problematic to me. Also I have very strong feeling, that tournament games are by far most serious, which makes it better testing grounds for bots.

I vote for Marius' point.

I have no problem with bots but agree that championship should be solely for humans.

@Marius and Arek: What are your arguments for opposing bots in Hex and Havannah championship tournaments?

Personally I see no objections as long as the humans win. Once the bots start winning, the humans may claim a second league for humans only, just like women have a league for women only in several sports.

Among my arguments are the fact that when I play in a championship, I want to play against humans. Also, I'd like it to be a pure human competition - they are the ones I want to test my strength against. There is also the point that there are a limited number of positions in each league (as it should be). Bots now take up some of these spots, forcing human players down to lower leagues. To me, it's less fun to play against a bot than against a human. I want to be able to decide for myself if I want to play against a bot or not. If bots play in the championship, I'm forced to play against bots if I want to play there too. I'm sure bots have their place on this site, but for me, the Hex Championship is not such a place.

Have you seen the Swedish serie Real Humans ?

The main theme is about how we can cope with bots in our daily life. This discussion with a bit of bot intolerance reminds me about it.

More and more, bots will be competitors or allies in our work. Maybe the bot creators should make them less “cold” to be accepted.

I agree with Marius that when we play humans, there is a sort of meta-level and shared knowledge about the situation of the game which makes it more interesting than to play a bot only focused on getting more value of the current position or the possible futures for MCTS bots. I don't mean issuing silly jokes while we play but have a grasp of the dynamics of the game or analysis of the style of play…

Carroll, the whole point is that bots are not actual competitors. Given enough “brain” power computer can solve the game. Bot is not a player but is just a flawed solution. I agree it is fun to play against bots to some extent, however Hex Championship is a competition among players, not programmers.

Argumens seem silly. As a player of any game I want to know my strenght, as objectively as possible, this means you have to be exposed to as much different play styles as possible. It does not matter from where the moves come. As long as AI has sufficiently good approximation of good play it should not matter in objective game. And I argue that on board games bots have sufficiently high level, that can be seen from the rankings. As for “given enough power” argument, that also seems a bit silly, games like hex on 19x19 go, and likely havana of size 10 have crazy huge position space that will be increadily hard to analyze. Also same argument could be made for humans, given enough time and paper you could also theoreticaly write down and list and look up every position. Does not mean you'll do it. Sure one of them is somethat more likely, but in my opinion that does not matter. Sure if you have bot that has perfectly analyzed the game it is like not interesting to play against it, but we are nowhere near that. Moreover even if there would be such bots, they likely need emense resources (though as time progressed sometimes such bots come in reach of “comodity hardware”) thus you are not likely to encounter such bots here. And even after “perfect bots” are created, people can still try to write “less brute-forcey” bots, ones that try to approximate strategic thinkging more, and likely using less resources to work, such bots can still be useful and interesting opponents.

Now wone part that playing agains humans gives more pleasure, is that when you are winning you know someone “on the other side of the screen” is “suffering” and that is somethat unique feeling when compared to bots :). But I would say that that should not be the reason to exclude all bots.

Morphles, the point is that I prefer to play against humans. If I want to play against a bot, I'll do that - I don't even need a site like Little Golem to do that. If everyone agreed that playing against bots was the same as playing against other humans, then there would be no need for player-vs-player sites, everyone could just play against their preferred AI. Me, I prefer to play against other humans, so I play here. At least in the championship, I want to be able to avoid the bots.

Also, I don't want to have to be a “test bench” for program developers. I don't necessarily mind playing against their bots - but I want to be able to decide if and when to do so. With bots in the championship, my only options are 1) play against the bots, 2) resign against the bots on move 1 (meaning I'll lose the championship), and 3) stop playing in the championship.

Finally: “Arguments seem silly” is not the best way to proceed with the discussion. If you don't mind playing against bots, that's fine. Please accept that your opinion is not necessarily shared with everyone else. If I am alone in my stance, then I don't expect anything to be done. If, however, several others share my view, I expect the bots to withdraw from the championship. I have found that most players on LG are nice people who heed the opinions of others, and most bot makers in every game have followed the advice from the variuos fora on where the bots should play. This opinion could (and does) vary from game to game. Therefore, I ask again: Who agrees with me that the bots should not play in the championship? Fellow Hex-players, let's hear your opinion.

I get that you don't like it. And I understand that. Still… First of such topic is seriously slanted to get only opinions that agree (that is people who do not like bots), this can twist the perception of player base. I can bet that majoryti don't care, some of them would not even know they are playing against bot as not all bots have “bot” in their name (definely was the case for me couple of times then I started). Secondly number of bots is low. Thirdly as I said, I see presence of more players and more paly styles as being significantly better for development of game/“game scene”, are those players bots or not is of little significance (well with exception of having identical bot instances participate, as that would be basicaly same player playing multiple games). Lastly looking at your ratings I would guess that you get to play what, one bot per championship at most, and not on every one at that; your last havannah 14.2.1 does not seem to have any bots. So this is ranther absolutish position you take, does not seem that understanding, unlike what you say in your last post. Sounds a bit like: I don't feel like bots, my way or high way. I know I worded this likely harsher than it is, still I hope you can understand me.

And also, I do not see any sensible arguments apart I do not feel like playing against bots. Is the only harm from them emotional harm to some players?

By the way I have no horse in this race, that is I do not write or run bots, just as I said I find it unlikely that bot support posts would appear I want to show arguments opposed to the topic.

The number of bots may be “low”; that depends on what “low” is. Currently I play two bots in the Hex championship, which is two games I'd rather play against human opponents. Playing these games take time. Like for most others, my time is precious - if I'm not having fun playing games here, I'll end up doing something else. Also, I would feel even more strongly against the bots if they were to take “my” place in a league - forcing me to play in one lower league than I otherwise would. That has not happened in Hex - yet.

As for “the majority don't care”, I'm not sure. Unfortunately, the “majority” don't read and reply to the forum, so we'll never know. Anyway, if a significant number of those who DO care, agree with me, I'm sure the bot creators would listen to us and pull the bots from the championship. So far, I see Arek and me against bots, while you and Tony seem to be OK with them. I'm not really sure what to make of Carrol's post :-)

As for topics like this being “slanted”, that can be a risk in some cases. However, I doubt so in this case. I'm more worried that very few will even bother to read the post, never mind reply to it. So the “bias” will probably be that only a very small number of players read and reply. Also, even if the vast majority is “OK” with bots, while, say, 25% want them gone, I think that would be more than enough reason to pull the bots. Unless, ofcourse, that majority were to PREFER having bots here.

I don't remember when and in which forum, but discussions like this have been held before, for several other games. I think in most, if not all, cases, the bot creators listened to the “forum advice”. FatPhil, maybe you remember? There were several discussions about RoRoRo, I think.

Good reply :)

Just on time issues, bot's are probably friendliest to that regard, as bots most often make theri moves way way faster than any human, you can finish those games faster :) Though of course you still need to spend time thinking, probably quite a bit if bot is any good :).

Yeah I agree with ok, prefer and against, those are 3 options.

Still it is sad to me that this all seems to be quite emotion based only. As I really really think having bots improves overal evolution of the game and it's strategy. And considering that both hex and havannah in my eyes are way less popular than they should be… I wan't them to grow as much as possible.

And a bit of a derailment.

I find players that joing championship and then do not play way way way more anoying than any bot. Worst is when player plays/finishes some games, and then times out on others. I know this is very understandable, but this seems like considerably more serious issue. Maybe ability to replace such players with bots would be godd? :D

And one more thing. I genuently think that bots promote more “fair play”. For example I'm not on havannah level 1, and somehow even managed to stay there for another tournament… Though in all fairness I do not think I play at that level. Quite some of my games were me just not giving up even in rather dire situation, and then my opponent slips and misses my last effort trick play. Yeah I win, but I kinda feel like cheating, on the other hand… If my oponent slips for such cheapish tricks maybe he is not that great ether? And here is where bots come in, it is much much harder do such tricks on bots (well this is kinda of “educated assumption”), “machines are relentless”, and again this is seems like a good thing. Though havannah bot (I think there is only one? well maybe 2), seems to have some other kinds of shortsightedness (probably more in strategic deparment, unlike “tactical tricks” for humans). But thats my poin, different styles give more variety to the game, which is why I am posting there, possibly overly much :)

I’m not really sure what to make of Carrol’s post :-)

In their present state, I'm opposed to bots joining championships, but not other tournaments.

When they'll pass Turing test, I'll reconsider…

I personally agree that bots shouldn't play in the championship.

Of course there are several arguments to consider, and it also depends on the game. It's just that weak bots (like the Hex bots) most likely won't contribute to the knowledge and strategy of the game in the community.

And in any case, even if they did, we don't need them to play in championship to do so.

I also prefer humans…

I don't mind playing in tournaments that include bot(s).  Like morphles, I want to play against opponents with varied styles of play.  But I also appreciate that some people just don't want to play against bots.

I vote for no bots in championships.

@morphles

Well if you call my arguments silly than I don't bother to justify them. I only suggest you think about why in sports (mind sports no different) they don't include machines in competitions. I've never seen football played against ball cannons, never seen a chess bot attain grandmaster title or a Formula 1 car with an autopilot. Ridiculous? Exactly.

Other than championships I don't mind playing against bots. I wish programmers do their best at creating perfect AI for Hex.

Arek, I assure you football playing robots will be coming.

I think it's nice that programmers have a place here to try out their works. They pour alot of effort into not only writing their bots but also studying the games in order to even be able to write “smart” code… it is much more than just writing some recursive brute-force algorithm, such a thing would never work in a complex game like hex. I think the championship is the place to find the champion of a game and I don't see why a bot shouldnt be allowed to compete for that (although once it is agreed upon that a bot is indeed superior to humans it should retire). To me it seems like a much more suitable tournament than monthly cup or infinity which seem to be more fun orientated.

So, do you also think that once it is agreed that a certain human is superior to all other humans he should retire?

No, that's an entirely different matter. I wouldn't say a bot should ever be banned in a bot-only tournament either. But in a mixed tournament where one kind doesn't stand a chance against the other that would just suck for the inferior kind and in this case it would be us humans. Certainly a tournament shouldn't suck.

I think a solution could be creating two kinds of championship: one is for human players only and the other is for all the players including bots.

The one winning the human championship could claim he/she is the best among all human players in the game, while the one winning the overall championship could claim he/she/it is the best player in the game. Everyone should be happy then :-)

There are no football robots first, because our robotics are not at that level. Ball shooting cannons is just BS and at best tangential to the discussion. Secondly there are physical safety concerns with robots when interacting physically, this applies not only to sports but any manufacture (or other task) where robots do significant amount of work, special rules must be created so that everyone and everything would be safe in such cases, and deaths still occur. Now it appears some people here emotionally unsafe with bots:), though I do not consider this as real danger. If bots do not play against best humans measuring their progress is basically impossible. The thing that you can play against bots, but just not in championship sounds incredibly dubious, people voting to ban bots in championships will later go out of their way to find bot matches? Does not seem likely.

As for superior bots, I do not think that just being supperior/winning some games against best human should be enough to disqualify bot, this does not mean that humans can no longer beat bots. IMO bots (well particular implementation of bot) should be banned only when it can provably play strictly optimal game. As purgency said bot makes need to do crazy amounts of game analyzes to make bots worth something, find various generalization and patterns, this really does enrich strategic knowledge of the game.

There are some issues with bot vs human play, that come from basically humans shortcomings. Bots can remember certain patterns perfectly, be it chess opening, go josekis, or hex edge templates, humans possibly are more fallible here, this can give bot significant tactical advantage, that can overcome humans strategic advantages that might be present. Still I would thing that good player should have little problems with such starting and general board patterns.

If bots are ever significantly stronger than humans, I do not want to see them in championships. Until then, I do.

Bots behave well, make the moves fast, and play originally. So I wish all best to both Castro, Wanderer, Lajkonik, and Wolve and Castro. They make playing Havannah more interesting. For instance on small sizes in Havannah it is much more fun playing bots than humans. On size 5 Havannah it was Wanderer who inspired me to play the creative 1.e5! Castro has also enhanced my knowledge in Havannah very much on all Board sizes.

I'm surprised that bots' strenght is considered a crucial factor in this discussion. I don't feel ashamed of losing to a bot or anything… To me emotions are no concern, but it is strictly ideological. I feel that the idea of championship is to appoint the best player among human players.

It would be great to have a choice between mixed championship and human championship. Some day I would like to program my own bot (if I ever have time for that) and put it up to compete in mixed tournament.

How do I proof that I am human and qualify my avatar to take part in a pure human league? Are human players allowed to use a KI for analysis? What about trmph.com?

A pure human league is impracticable on a distributed arena like LG. Also: In a non-pure human league, still the best human is figured out.

For me, playing against any kind of avatar (or “endpoint”) is a matter of emotions. Sometimes I end up like Kolrami: https://youtu.be/yIRT6xRQkf8

After all: It _is_ possible right now to have a pure league: Just set up a user tournament that assumes some rules…

I noticed that it somehow works in chess online that players tend to not use engines. In this sophisticated community of littlegolem having a pure human league is practicable :)

I only mention strength, because if enough bots got strong enough, then you no longer effectively can use a championship involving bots to crown the winning human. Losing is no matter to me. There's a lot of human players who beat me badly enough.

Arek, I will merely quote and italicize: “…emotions are no concern, but it is strictly ideological. I feel that…”

Few bots spoil championship a little, many bots spoil it a lot. Do we wanna look for an equilibrium number of bots? I say 0.

Hehe, my language shortcomings are a different story :)

My opinion on bots:

I also prefer not to have bots in the championship.

Elsewhere is OK.

Arek, I didn't mean to complain about about your language. I just think it's obvious that you have one preference, I have another. Hence highlighting you saying you feel the championship should be one way.

Fair enough, I understand people have different preferences, hence I totally yield to voting result here. Nonetheless I also wanted to highlight that there are certain standards among other games, competitions etc. From my experience most prestigious championship in various games are ones where only humans compete. Another thing is that at the moment there is no choice for hex players but to play against the bots in all cyclical competitions.Haha, I'm not giving up on that topic, sorry :)

Is this a vote? It's Richard's server.

David: Of course it's Richard's server. He makes the rules. Still, this IS a sort of vote - or maybe more of a poll, if you like. Why? Not because we can vote over an issue and have the rules changed. Richard dictates the rules. But, like I stated earlier, people here at LG are generally nice, and sensitive to what the opinion of other players are. We have seen it in several other games: When many people complained about bots in the forum, the bot creators simply decided to withdraw their bots from the championship. So this is about making our opinions known. If those who make the bots realise that many Hex players dislike having their bots in the championship, I actually believe that they will remove their bots. If nobody cares, or almost everyone are OK with bots in the championship, I suppose they will let the bots stay.

Marius, how many answers you consider to be a valid sign that most people don't want bots in the championship?

Well Carroll: First, I don't know if that's really up to me to decide. As stated earlier, it would really be up to the bot creators how many people they feel it's acceptable that dislike having their bots in the championship. Second, I don't think it's necessary that “most people” don't want bots in the championship. If, say, 25% (just to pick a number) don't want them, and the other 75% don't care, I still think they don't belong there. If 25% don't want them, and the other 75% really DO want them, that's another story, of course.