Game 1806774: Maciej vs Lazyplayer Hex, Havannah

23 replies. Last post: 2017-01-16

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Game 1806774: Maciej vs Lazyplayer
  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2017-01-12

    This was such an interesting game to watch.  Thank you both so much for it.  Would you all like to comment on post game analysis?

    Bill

        

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-13

    Bill, nothing special on that game really :D

    Maciej has told me he thinks 48 i9 probably gave away my win.

    I agree that after it there is no more chance for white, but i think it was already unlikely to win for white...

    Earlier on we both agree that white was doing good, but that’s because his play on bottom-right was not good... we both made errors there...

    He didn’t dislike my central stones F15, J12, H11, but i do dislike them... they were experimental, and experiment failed i would say!

    I’m a newbie on 19x19 anyway :D

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-13

    I suppose, to get a feeling for 19x19, it would take something like a minimum of 100 games vs someone like Maciej that has some experience with it...

    Maybe on infinity? or championship? the “strong” players have to agree on something...

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2017-01-13

    Maciej, can you explain why you are so consistent at playing 3. J6 and 5. J14?

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2017-01-13

    I also thought you made a mistake with move 48. allowing Maciej to connect both the bottom left and bottom center of the board with 49. E15...

     

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-13

    Bill, i also like to surprise my opponent, that’s why i played that crazy 48... but objectively it’s nonsense, i admit...

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2017-01-13

    Well, I admire your audacity :)

    It looks like 48. E15 would have been strong for you.

     

  • Maciej Celuch at 2017-01-13

    Bill, Why 3.j6 and 5.j14? That was an experiment I have tried in my debut in 1st league (13x) hex championship.

    The examples from this championship: TaralJose M Grau RibasSzakal, FritzPassengerna_wspakFrode and Tim Shih.

    I’ve found out that 13x is too small for this to work as we can see in my game against Tim Shih.

    Of course i tried the same on 19x and it seems to be working. If I didn’t miss anything: I’ve lost only two games having “j6” or “j14”  (it was in 2005) against David J Bush and na_wspak and i didn’t lose any 19x game having both of them “j6 and j14”. That’s the reason I keep playing this.

    Shortly about a game:

    15.Q12 - black’s big mistake (I missed 16.P14). At that moment black was done on right bottom corner.

    26.O17 - the right bottom corner battle is over. Black gained P11, N13 and R17 to work with later on. On the other hand white gained a very big wall connected to right edge with a lot of room to work with in every directions.

    47.K14 - the crucial moment. No matter what H15-J14-K14 are connected to bottom. At 48. white had 4 options:

    a) connect left edge by playing, for example 48.C16, making black’s D13-E13 pair completely useless,

    b) connect right edge by playing, for example 48.M10, making black’s J14-K14 pair completely useless,

    c) do not connect to any of the sides but increase the chance of connecting both at once, for example 48.I9, allowing black to use both D13-E13 and J14-K14 pairs,

    d) don’t care about connecting itself to any of the edges and focus on blocking the opponent, for example 48.N3, allowing black to use both D13-E13 and J14-K14 pairs.

    48.I9 - white’s big mistake. White choose option c), which in this situation was a failure. This move was nothing compared to paires D13-E13 or J14-K14. That was in my opinion the moment black regained an advantage.

    49.E15 - D13-E13 is now connected to bottom. That was the weakness of options c) and d).

    64.P270.M2, 74.J2 - white is focusing to block the opponent but it’s too late.

    91.F5 - end.


  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2017-01-13

    Looks like 91.G5 wins as well, a little less quickly.

    Thank you both for such an interesting game and such interesting commentary!


  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-14

    At the end i should have played this but anyway same result.

  • shalev at 2017-01-14

    Bill, Maciej shows you why he played 5. j14 on his very next move: after lazyplayer’s solid but predictable 6. l16, Maciej plays 7. m15. Why doesn’t lazyplayer respond with something simple like 8. m16? Because the j14 stone makes the 5th row ladder strong for black.

    I wonder how things play out differently if lazyplayer opened with a 6th row corner stone instead of a 5th row stone. Does Maciej still play 5. j14? This time it looks like this, which is significantly different.

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-15

    shalev, do you see any problem for white in this variation?

    i didn’t play it again to avoid playing the too obvious, but the too obvious was likely better what i played...

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-15

    And i think 5th row is already on the ambitious side... i consider this to be the prudent but maybe wrong one...

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-15

    shalev, and the line you showed, i don’t think it’s bad for white...

    it’s hard to say for me, but i see many opportunities for white... probably more than for what I’ve done in the actual game...

    examples:

    http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#19,d1d1j6o16j14l16m15m16l15i17

    http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#19,d1d1j6o16j14l16m15m16l15k16k15h16h15i15i14i17g16k14j15n15

    http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#19,d1d1j6o16j14l16m15m16l15k16k15j16h15i15i14j15k14g17f16g15g16d17n15n17e18e15

    These are just the first i could see... i don’t think black wall on bottom is much strong because as compensation i get stuff on bottom-left and bottom-right...

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-15

    Anyway, beside this discussion on how i should have played bottom-left, i also think the best was to not play another move there at all...

    I think something like this or this this were the best...

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-15

    I mean, bottom-right, sorry for too many posts here :)

  • shalev at 2017-01-15

    Well, I admit I have very little intuition on 19x19 and most of these lines seem ok for white. But this cuts both ways: to the extent that we can’t tell what’s going on for 19x19 openings, we also can’t tell whether Maciej’s move is decent or which corner you should have played at. I think we’re just nowhere near answering such questions; at most we can state our vague intuitions.

    (Unless Maciej and lazyplayer have a much deeper understanding of 19x19 than I do, which is certainly a possibility.)

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-15

    haha no i’ve most of my experience on 11x11, so i’m really guessing here...

    in fact i decided to try some 19x19 just for forcing me to think different...

    then this game with maciej turned up because we both had won some monthly cup nearly a decade ago...

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2017-01-16

    Sorry for spam, but seeing many strong players comment here I invite you to accept my offer of a 19x19 game. I’m desperate, have been waiting for months now :)

  • ypercube at 2017-01-16

    @Arek you didn’t specify who you are asking ;)

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2017-01-16

    I’m asking everybody. I registered for a 19x19 rated game months ago and haven’t got even 1 ever since.

  • lazyplayer at 2017-01-16

    Arek, i’ve sent you invitation, you only had to ask! ;)

    I don’t like to play in parallel, but now I’m only playing JKB...

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