User tournaments Hex, Havannah

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User tournaments
  • Force majeure at 2018-10-15

    I see, that in the past there have been many user tournaments. Are there any people, wanting to revive the tradition? :)

  • ypercube at 2018-10-15

    Sure!

  • Giupiter at 2018-10-15

    Why not?!

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-19

    So we need a member user to create one :)

  • Giupiter at 2018-10-20

    :D

  • apetresc ★ at 2018-10-22

    I can create one :) What kind of parameters do we all want?

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-23

    Nice! :) What kind of paremeters can you set? I would play anyway, asking just out of curiosity :)

  • ypercube at 2018-10-23

    Board size, date to start, rating limitations or free for all, public or private (by setting a password) are the options I remember.

  • Giupiter at 2018-10-23

    For me: 13 X 13 the size of the board, no rating limitations and, no problems about the date :) What about you?

  • psikonauta at 2018-10-23

    Same for me!

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-24

    Same :)

  • ypercube at 2018-10-24

    So we are talking about Hex? Good.

    (@Force majeure, I wasn’t sure if you initially wanted a Hex or a Havannah tournament!)

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-24

    I prefer hex, but would play havannah as well

  • apetresc ★ at 2018-10-24

    Okay, I created the tournament, with a start date of November 1st, so just a little over a week from now.

    The password is: gardner, in honor of one of the great popularizers of the game :) I decided to add a password just to prevent a lot of drive-by registrations that never show up to play. I put a link to this thread in the description so the password is not hard to find.

    See you all over the board!

  • apetresc ★ at 2018-10-24

    (Oops, I suppose I should include a link!)

    https://littlegolem.net/ng/a/Ctrn.action?view=&dto.id=1112

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-24

    Thanks!

  • Giupiter at 2018-10-24

    Well done, thanks!

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-24

    Already 6 players! Can we make it to double digit? ;)

  • ypercube at 2018-10-27

    9 players now

  • apetresc ★ at 2018-10-27

    10 players now – and I’m the lowest rated by over 200 points! This should be interesting :)

  • leela_bot ★ at 2018-10-27

    Can I play? I realize some people don’t like playing a bot, so I won’t join if there are objections.

  • ypercube at 2018-10-27

    None from me, since you asked so nicely ;) 

  • apetresc ★ at 2018-10-27

    I don’t mind personally either – although since you’re here, I’d like to re-ask you a question I PMed you a few months ago: are the network weights and code you use published anywhere? I’m an avid leela-zero fan for Go and would love to train and play Hex with it too :)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-27

    leela, you should probably give handicap to players below 2000, just give them a strong start... :)

  • ypercube at 2018-10-28

    I don’t want any handicap. We could have another tourney, with handicap, on the other hand.

    But I think should be on another thread. How will the handicap be decided, for the various differences in rating?

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-28

    Regarding handicap – are users tournament rated?

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-28

    Force yes this is rated but leela is so strong and consistent, it’ll win even with the handicap!

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-28

    Ok nów I get it :) Looking forward to next chpionship

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-28

    Force, in fact I’ve watched some of its games, maybe it’s consistent but not strong, hehehe.

    But consistency is very important in hex, one bad stone and you’re dead!

  • leela_bot ★ at 2018-10-28

    apetresc: no the code isn’t currently public. I haven’t really decided where to go with it and am currently still working on the network training and don’t want to spend time getting the code ready for “publication”. It’s a bit of a mess at the moment.

  • David J Bush ★ at 2018-10-28

    Row handicapping would not work for Hex, by the way. The only kind of granular handicapping system I can think of would be for strong players to agree on sets of  initial non-swappable moves that would fall into the same approximate category for a set ratings difference. One might even consider specific double initial moves for stronger handicaps. But that sounds like a total mess to deal with. I agree with hypercube to wait for later to implement any handicap. And by the way, how did this tournament turn into an AI allowed tournament? Who let THEM in here?

  • ypercube at 2018-10-28

    @David do you object on leela_bot playing in the tourney?

    I suppose if there is at least one objection, it won’t play. But I haven’t seen any explicit objection yet.

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-28

    I don’t mind playing against bot as long as its rating reflects its strenght, but perhaps creating a leela challenge tournament is a better idea? Anyway, it would be another possibility to play some more games. Taking into account how popular this user tournament has already become, it seems that finding participants will not be a problem :)

  • ypercube at 2018-10-28

    @Force_majeure, since you initiated this thread and idea I appoint you as admin of the tournament (along with @apetresc who was kind enough to create the tourney).

    I will gladly accept your decision on this.

    I also notice that you mentioned “people” in the very first line, so perhaps it is better we avoid bots in this one (and as you suggested, create another one as "leela challenge) and/or some other, for all bots and humans to participate.

    We have 13 people registered so far and 3 more days to go.

  • Force majeure at 2018-10-28

    ypercube, this is very nice of you, however I don’t feel like owner of the tournament :) Moreover, when typing “people” my intention was not to prevent bots from playing. However, if there are any concerns regarding bots, I think it would be safer just to create new tournament and enhance traffic around hex a little bit :)

  • Tom Ace at 2018-10-28

    It’s fine with me if a bot participates.

  • David J Bush ★ at 2018-10-29

    leela is rated significantly above me, so I would not object to playing. If any bot rated lower than me participates, I will resign on the first move.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-29

    David, it’s underrated anyway, even if it is above you in rating...

    I would say we need to relax, it’s only a silly game, there are no prizes or anything.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-29

    Btw, I’ve decided to challenge leela, see my game, commentary is welcomed even during the game... :)

    https://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1999024&nmove=15

    Hopefully I’m still winning. I think the initial stone was way too strong.

  • gzero_bot at 2018-10-29

    @lazyplayer: gzero thinks white has a 76% chance of winning after 16.i7. although gzero has a large bias for white.

    ps: i am obviously supporting my compatriot leela in this game. ;)


  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-29

    gzero, in hex, 99% win can immediately turn into 100% loss, heheh... this is the funny part of this game...

    in your bot, the eval function is very unstable, isn’t it? from stone to stone... or stone to next stone of next player

  • gzero_bot at 2018-10-29

    @lazyplayer: the eval isn’t unstable between moves... For example playing out your leela game it pretty much is at 70% ish all the way (to move 50 in your game) - and in self play continues to 72% at move 60, 74% at move 70 and then the game is pretty much done at move 74... [see here, hypothetical spoilers - <a href=“http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#13,l1l1d5d10j4i10f9f8g8h6g7g6i6h7i8i7f7e6f6g4k6j7f5f4l7j11k10k11l10l11c7e3c4c3d3e1e2f1f2g1g2h1h2i1j2i2h4i3c2d2a4b4a5b5a6b7b6c6c5e5g5h3d6d8d7e7j9h9i5j3b9c10c9f10”><img src=“http://www.trmph.com/diagram/1,hex,13,l1l1d5d10j4i10f9f8g8h6g7g6i6h7i8i7f7e6f6g4k6j7f5f4l7j11k10k11l10l11c7e3c4c3d3e1e2f1f2g1g2h1h2i1j2i2h4i3c2d2a4b4a5b5a6b7b6c6c5e5g5h3d6d8d7e7j9h9i5j3b9c10c9f10,-1”/></a>].... 

    The issue with instability with hex models is that certain board positions the network will think are good when they are clearer not.  And it seems that with extra training the instability doesnt improve (where in other game types, it does)... So in other words it is super optimistic about the outcome of the game, but as the search gets deeper it will end up flip flopping its opinion suddenly.  :)  I am still running an old network from early July when we had the bot competition, whereas (I assume) Leela has trained and improved much since then.

    Also I reckon gzero is a lot stronger as white (so the bias might be accurate), but it is hard to prove.

    PS: I won’t be entering this competition (and sorry for gatecrashing this thread).


  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-29

    Stronger as white you mean stronger with an extra stone or stronger as 2nd player?

    Thanks for explanation.

    > And it seems that with extra training the instability doesnt improve (where in other game types, it does)...

    Well this is exactly my point. Hex is kind of discrete/unstable. For example in my game, 32 d4 is black win I think, but it’ll probably still be seen as 70% win for white by your bot? I think hex has low “branching factor” and low “depth”, and yet it’s so hard to approximate. It’s kind of paradoxical.

    > So in other words it is super optimistic about the outcome of the game, but as the search gets deeper it will end up flip flopping its opinion suddenly.  :)

    Well this is the classic horizon effect.


  • gzero_bot at 2018-10-29

    > Stronger as white you mean stronger with an extra stone or stronger as 2nd player?

    As 2nd player.

    > Well this is the classic horizon effect.

    I  was going to write that.  :) 


  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-29

    Basically my opinion is that, for hex,  either you play near perfectly, or you play near random. It’s hard to find something in the middle.

  • lguser at 2018-10-29

    I’m not sure what you mean by Hex having  low depth. The top player here is almost 2680, the other games on here which have a top player that has a rating at or above that are Go and Twixt. So Hex is roughly the third deepest game on little golem.

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-10-29

    In the bots' play style I very often get the impression like the losing player is not even trying. It’s very visible in the above example of gzero analysis. No wonder it’s optimistic for white when it’s playing hopelessly as black itself :D

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-29

    Iguser, good point, I have a vague feeling on this but I don’t know how to explain it. But I’m confident even top hex players play a ton of errors.

  • shalev at 2018-10-29

    Wait, gzero, you say that the game is over at move 74 in your analysis... but it is BLACK who is winning in that position, not white!

    http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#13,l1l1d5d10j4i10f9f8g8h6g7g6i6h7i8i7f7e6f6g4k6j7f5f4l7j11k10k11l10l11c7e3c4c3d3e1e2f1f2g1g2h1h2i1j2i2h4i3c2d2a4b4a5b5a6b7b6c6c5e5g5h3d6d8d7e7j9h9i5j3b9c10c9f10b12a11e10e11d11d9l2k3l3k4l4j6h8

    Whereas if you rewind to move 71, white has a winning position. The mistake is in move 72 of the analysis.

  • shalev at 2018-10-29

    Anyway, congratulations lazyplayer! I was afraid leela is like a 2900 player now, but following this game I guess maybe it’s only 2400 or so. This means there will be some real competition in the next championship. Exciting!

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-29

    shalev, i’ve chatted with author of leela_bot. He told me that leela was fully aware a12 was horribly strong but there is a bug in the swap code. He’ll fix that bug and then we’ll have to win without an handicap. In that game he was basically playing with a small handicap due to the first stone. ;)

    The game you lost with leela also is due to a small handicap that you gave yourself with the first stone :D

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-29

    shalev, I did know a12 was strong but I didn’t know that leela was aware of it. I though it had some secret plan to refute my obvious attempts. Instead the obvious attempts worked. Very surprising. I would say, the correct mindset is this, if a position is theoretically winning, then we’ve to win. Aim at perfect play because with leela you may very well need it.

  • shalev at 2018-10-29

    Hmm, it’s still impressive that you beat leela. That’s a handicap, yes, but not a gigantic one. I’m pretty sure I can beat a 2200 player with such a handicap without too much trouble. It’s probably worth like 50 elo, or maybe 100 max. I’m assuming you’re still better than me (though we didn’t play in a while), but I’d imagine I can beat you 1 in 3 times without a handicap or 1 in 4 times with a12. In other words it’s not THAT bad.

  • leela_bot ★ at 2018-10-30

    I agree with shalev, I don’t think it a12 is that strong. lazyplayer should give himself more credit for winning! Congrats! I might leave the “bug” in place a little longer, it certainly makes for more varied/interesting opening play :)

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-10-30

    Me and lazyplayer we’ve reached a position in live play tinight, which is very equal and also is played more / less properly from the start. We’re unable to solve it.

    In case anybody wants to see for himself, here it is

    Especially if bot owners are kind enough to analyse it, we would be very grateful :)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-30

    Or this

  • shalev at 2018-10-31

    Looks like white is ahead to me.

    Why does black refuse to play josekis? Is that you lazyplayer? Play more josekis :P

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-10-31

    It’s me, I think josekis can and should be delayed.

    Anyway precisely now the black will play d4 joseki to almost any white move.

    White might be ahead but if he follows a typical joseki then black wins.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    Well, it was late in the night and we were both tired. I missed h6 like a stupid, and he had previously missed g7 like a stupid. But with both g7 and h6 in place, it’s probably white win again. We swapped colors several times during that game, so both white and black have stones suggested by both.

    Overall it was an experiment to test more central play like d8-g7 couple. It didn’t work well for black. White refuted black without complications.

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-10-31

    laz, g7 is move #5 so you may have meant something else

    anyway I don’t agree with the conclusions and it’s not even proven to be white win ;)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    Arek, no i mean move #5 is experimental, obviously josekis would be worth consideration at #5...

    What you do after h6? I think it’s game over?

  • gzero_bot at 2018-10-31

    Here you go - 65% at move 35 and 83% at move 54 for white (with some bias).  Not sure it helps.

    Thanks @shalev, will dig into why it thinks previous game analysis was a win for white... hopefully it was my fault, and not the bot’s.


  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    gzero, in fact we already tried 38 g5, and it’s already refuted. If bot would play 38 g5, then it would simply lose to 39 d4 (if I recall correctly).

    Thanks for sharing your data anyway.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    leela seems to be able to untangle endgame messes, let’s see if he says something on this.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    gzero, your bot is written from scratch? leela has much easier job because it’s just copy and paste from Go!

  • gzero_bot at 2018-10-31

    gzero is written from scratch.  It isn’t a hex bot as such ... it is – in theory – game agnostic.  I didn’t write any hex specific code (someone else wrote the hex rules in a very high level language for 9x9, I tweaked a few lines to make it 11x11 and 13x13)...  of course I had to train a neural network from scratch via self play, which means turning it on and leaving it for a couple of week or so!

    I am considering starting a fresh network (so from zero again), but with different training parameters.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    gzero, which technologies are you using? tensorflow?

  • apetresc ★ at 2018-10-31

    lazyplayer, his code is available at https://github.com/richemslie/ggp-zero so you can see for yourself. Based on a quick look, it looks to be Keras only, no Tensorflow.

  • shalev at 2018-10-31

    Wait, lazyplayer, are you sure? You think black wins after 38. g5 39. d4? I’ll take white and play 40. d5

    What’s black next move? White seems totally winning to me.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    To be honest I’m not sure because I’ve already forgot, but probably this was the problem.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    But this is white win again, and yet we had tested this g3 stuff... maybe Arek will remember, he had found an amazing refutation, but was 2 AM so maybe I was just sleeping.

  • leela_bot ★ at 2018-10-31

    lazyplayer, leela doesn’t like 38.h6. It thinks c7 or d4 have about a 70% chance of winning for black:

      c7 -> 1874762 (V: 71.67%) (N:  5.44%) PV: c7 c9 e8 h4 d4 d5 f6 e7 i5 f7 g6 h7 d8 f12 b6 c5 b5 c4 g12 d7 c8 j2 i4 f2 b4 c2 c3 e1 f3 g13 f13 d9 e2 f1 f5 h5 b9 c11 b12 d12 b11 e3 d2 d1 d6 b10 e9 e6 e5 g3 g2 f4 h3 g4 i3 i1 h2 g1 h1

      d4 ->  120294 (V: 69.63%) (N: 10.94%) PV: d4 d5 l4 k3 m2 k6 g5 h4 k4 j5 l6 m3 l3 l7 i5 h3 f4 h5 f7 g2 f3 f1 d2 e2 c5 e3 c6 d7 d6 f6 g6

      f4 ->     908 (V: 54.72%) (N: 13.60%) PV: f4 h5 k4 j5 d7 e7 h7 f6 e5 d8 b9 c8 b8 c7 b7 d5 c6 d6

      f6 ->     858 (V: 57.00%) (N: 11.11%) PV: f6 g5 k4 k3 l3 l2 m2 j5 d4 e3 c3 f5 l4

      l4 ->     800 (V: 53.75%) (N: 12.68%) PV: l4 k3 d4 e3 c3 h3 f5 d6 d5 e5 m2 k6 g3 g4 f4 f12

      k4 ->     536 (V: 60.64%) (N:  5.20%) PV: k4 k3 d4 e3 c3 h4 d5 d7 e6 d3 c4 d2

      d5 ->     525 (V: 59.33%) (N:  5.70%) PV: d5 d4 c4 d3 c5 c3 b4 b3 k4 k3 h4 h5


  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    Maybe this , well i just go sleep bye.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    leela, well if h6 loses, then what else?

  • leela_bot ★ at 2018-10-31

    shalev after your 38. g5 39. d4, 40. d5 leela likes c7

      c7 ->  108461 (V: 60.89%) (N: 12.03%) PV: c7 f7 f5 g3 b6 c3 c5 e2 e3 f2 k4 k3 h3 j2 b3 b4 l3 j5 i4 i5 g2 f3 g6 h5 g4 f6


  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    Maybe 38 f6? :)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    Ehehe no 38 f6 loses too, well i should shut up to avoid further stupid proposals :D

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    I suppose white is just losing at 38, indeed h6 doesn’t work due 39 g5 , and white can resign.

  • leela_bot ★ at 2018-10-31

    leela seems confused in the original position, sometimes it likes g5

      g5 -> 1929451 (V: 46.99%) (N: 24.07%) PV: g5 d5 f12 c4 c2 g12 d3 f5 g3 l4 k6 f3 g2 h4 h5 i4 j3 f2 f4 k4 j5 b3 c3 b4 b2 d4 e3 i3 i5 g4 f7 e7 d9 c9 d8 f6 g6 b8 c8 b9 d6 e5

    (before it switched to d5 as a response to g5 it had d4:

    PV: g5 d4 h3 f5 e3 k4 k3 c3 f7 e7 g3 h4 g4 f4 c2 b3 b12 e10 d2 b2 h6 g6 f6 h5 i5 c12 d11 c11 f10 e6 d6 c8 d8 f3 e8 )

    Sometimes it likes the wrong looking h3:

      h3 -> 1979539 (V: 44.56%) (N:  7.36%) PV: h3 f5 g3 c4 f12 d5 c3 b4 b3 f3 f4 d3 f2 e1 d2 g2 d7 e6 f7 e7 d9 c9 d6 c8 b7 e5 d8 e9 e8 g12 g5 g6 f6 l4 k3 m2 k6 k4 j5 h4

    but it doesn’t see a win for white. Looks like black might (barely) have it.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    Ok, given that resign is never good, I’ll take my chances with 38 f6, see you tomorrow ;]

  • lazyplayer at 2018-10-31

    Ehehe leela also doesn’t know, nice, it’s not that strong yet ;)

  • shalev at 2018-11-01

    Leela, you realize white wins in that c7 line you suggested for black, right? The final position is this, from which white win is immediate.

    Lazyplayer, OK, admittedly I didn’t see some of your lines, but I still think white wins after 40.d5. I suggest 44.c9

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-01

    This is maybe what Arek had found. It’s same b6 stuff but played right.

  • shalev at 2018-11-01

    Also, leela, in that c7 line white has an easier win; just 42. f3. Here is a sample line. I’d be curious if leela thinks black has any chance at all after 42.f3, because I can prove white wins there.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-01

    Shalev, sorry, i take back that. We’ll have to wait for Arek (or for me to be in better shape) to show us the way (if it exists).

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-01

    Shalev, i guess in our analysis we just missed 44 c9, my fault because I was playing white and it wasn’t that hard to find. Congrats then.

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-01

    actually leela is correct, d5 is the correct response to g5, however I still cannot solve it

    1)

    2)

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-01

    3)

  • shalev at 2018-11-01

    Arek, white wins in your second link: (2)

  • Force majeure at 2018-11-01

    Ok...here we go! 26 new games on the radar!

  • David J Bush ★ at 2018-11-01

    This simultaneous double game format has a potential flaw in it. I hope no one copies the opponent’s moves back to them in the other game. Maybe I should calm down?

  • apetresc ★ at 2018-11-01

    That’s always been a potential danger; people do it even when it’s not a double-game format, they just copy the moves from all their white games into their black games, and vice-versa. It guarantees a 50% winrate no matter what, whether it’s the same opponent or different ones.

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-02

    shalev, yes indeed, thanks, game over here, d5 does good job but eventually white c9 wins in all cases (often as the only winning move)

    But!!!

    What if c10 is just a piece of garbage? Let’s cheat a little bit and look at this

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-02

    hmm, no, b12 and even b11 in place of c10 are equally garbage this time, game over

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-02

    thanks leela for the analysis!

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-02

    wait a minute... now I think lazyplayer was eventually correct by proposing f10 in place of c10

    white cannot play d12

    whereas counter-intuitive e11 leads to quite a diffrent game

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-02

    no, no, no, sorry for the spam, I’m just talking nonsense, white plays d12 and wins, f10 discarded

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-02

    Arek, moral of the story, we should go sleep early.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-02

    Idea of f10 was to keep choices, but there is no need to keep choice, black should go for the best. The best probably is this

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-02

    laz, this way is black win, white has to be smart, maybe like this

  • Force majeure at 2018-11-02

    Both of you should write a book or tutorial for 2000+ wannabes :)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-02

    The mega tournement has begun! Good luck to all! :)

  • Force majeure at 2018-11-09

    Leela, how do you compute probabilities of winning for each variant? Is it based in same way on Monte-Carlo?

  • leela_bot ★ at 2018-11-09

    Yes probabilities come from the MCTS algorithm, but where the leaf node probabilities come from the neural net (instead of random playouts).

  • Force majeure at 2018-11-14

    Leela – could You comment on estimated probability of winning after each move?

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-14

    @force majeure
    You mean in the game messages after each move? That would be just rude! :D

  • Force majeure at 2018-11-14

    Yeah that was my intention. I think it would Have great learning aspect

  • HappyHippo at 2018-11-14

    I agree, it would be quite rude. At least let me pretend I have a chance. ;)

  • Force majeure at 2018-11-14

    So this feature shall be activated by messaging leela „teach me”  or „stop pretending” :)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    Maybe when the game has practically ended, it can post a message with analysis of whole game.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    Force, if you’ve questions on your games, ask me, It’s always a pleasure to criticize games of others! :P

    In your game vs leela, “obviously” 5 e9 is questionable and it probably gives away the game...

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    Force, basically, when you play a stone, you should make sure it’s connected both sides :D Eheheh

  • shalev at 2018-11-14

    This game? I disagree, 5 e9 seems like an OK choice. And I’m not sure if I like leela’s response... I would normally be hesitant to play 5 e9, but if I was told 6 g9 would be the response, I’d be more likely to choose 5 e9.

    What move would you have preferred instead? (Also, we should probably stop talking about this game because it’s still ongoing...)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    shalev, why not 5 b5? I think the position is very hard for black because c2 is just not that strong...

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    Here is my modest proposal. It’s nothing special but maybe it’s simple and it leads to decent game for black?

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    shalev, in general d10 is a counter to e9, so if you play e9 after d10, well, the opponent has already played the counter.

    it’s like playing this, it’s likely nonsense (and i’ve even experimented with nonsense like this)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    About leela response, you need to respect opponent! If it decided for that choice, it knows what it’s doing! Probably It has already calculated everything!

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    It’s just hilarious.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-14

    Shalev, Arek also has accidentally started a game with leela. So far he is probably winning, but he need to keep his win to the end now.

  • shalev at 2018-11-14

    Lazyplayer, I would never play d10 as a counter to e9 if the k10 is on the board, as in this game.

    As for your proposal... it’s interesting. I’m usually scared of giving my opponent 3 plays in a row on the short diagonal (at least on small boards), but here you’re giving white 4 plays on the short diagonal while playing 4 stones near the acute corners. I would not be so brave.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-15

    shalev, this game is just on topic. Arek is even given you credit for this. “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”! :)

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-15

    I agree with shalev on 5.e9 being a very decent move. Reversed logic, like shalev has said, d10 vs e9 is a terrible response given k10

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-15

    Force actually is imitating leela vs leela, e9 is a very bot-like attempt

    But well, imitating leela vs leela may be a very bad approach because leela has done all it’s training vs leela hahaha

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-15

    I try to get him psychologically! His winning rate predictions will crumble!

  • gzero_bot at 2018-11-15

    hahahaha – gzero allows a string with “penny” to report its skewed probability back to opponent – I’ll add support for “trash can” too just in case!!

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-15

    Arek, my evaluation was 99% win for black before b11-b12, now it’s only 75% win for black.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-15

    You’ve lost the potential d11-e10 escape for 11th row for... and potential b12-c11 escape for 12th row... for nothing tangible...

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-15

    And black b10-c10 sequence for helping you connect to top, frankly, not even 75% black win, I’ll say, 50%/50% now... and I’m hoping for black to win... Arek, you need to play better!

    > Reversed logic, like shalev has said, d10 vs e9 is a terrible response given k10

    It’s not terrible enough. It still does something and hence it’s still crippling e9. It doesn’t take much to turn e9 from winning to losing.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-15

    you’ve to understand, e9 is free and already played, obviously it’ll be weaker than a fresh stone, but it’s already there. it’s basically free.

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-15

    laz, I can only have one of:
    d11-e10 /
    b12-c11 / d9-e9+b8

    needed to sacrifice something to gain something because central play was in favour for white

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-15

    Arek, I still think it’s dubious but not 50/50, maybe 80/100 for you rather than 99/100. Now leela has played some more dubious choices so who knows...

  • Force majeure at 2018-11-15

    Arek, shalev – I don’t get the logic behind "d10 vs e9 is a terrible response given k10". Why is k10 affecting that choice that much?

    gzero – how accurate is your algorithm? After 2 moves it shows just 35% for gzero.

  • HappyHippo at 2018-11-15

    Because k10 can escape a fourth row ladder that could develop had white responded to e9 with e10

  • Force majeure at 2018-11-15

    HappyHippo – lol, that was actually my intention of 5. e9. However, I’ve tricked myself and for the whole discussion I thought that k10 is in upper right corner :D

  • gzero_bot at 2018-11-15

    @ force – it is accurate in that is what the model thinks... ;)

    but yeah, add/subtract 15% and it will make more sense, and towards the end game the probability will be closer to reality.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-15

    Force, my point is that k10 isn’t enough to save e9 from d10. Given we’re 2 strong players vs 1 on this, take this with a grain of salt. Maybe bots can tell us their opinions.

  • Force majeure at 40 hours ago

    It seems that leela will easily remain invincible in the tournament :/

  • lazyplayer at 36 hours ago

    Force, it has lost a game to gzero, but it played a really crazy start...

  • Arek Kulczycki at 31 hours ago

    ahahaha, this obviously does not work :D

  • Arek Kulczycki at 30 hours ago

    Maybe not THAT obviously, but I’m 95% sure it’s nonsense.

    I wanted this to be the simplest refutation, but it’s not verified

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