no room for errors Hex, Havannah

42 replies. Last post: 2018-12-05

Reply to this topic Return to forum

no room for errors
  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-28

    A game versus leela taught me a useful and a very unusual lesson.

    Actually I’ve learned from leela’s bad play this time.

    I argue this position is black win https://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=2005726&nmove=14

    But there is a very tricky dilemma there. Black has to decide between two options:


    In the first one black has solid connection to bottom which is very tempting. So tempting that I didn’t take time to consider other options long enough. Unfortunately it possibly is a losing line.

    Second one is tricky because it loses a direct connection to bottom. Despite that, I argue it’s correct and also winning for black. It seems so that undermining the white central group is way more important than the connection to bottom.

    I distrust leela’s ladder on bottom. IMO it’s nonsense, however, my ignorance led to leela profiting from the nonsense and finally beating me up.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    Arek, in the other thread, I was arguing that “being connected is not enough”. This game by leela was just the most outstanding example. :)

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    Another option that was maybe worth analyzing was this: http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#13,m1m1j9d10d5f9b11b12c11c12d11d12f11e11f10

    This is such a mess, but you know I love mess... :D

    Your proposal is also surely interesting. I think it would have been more principled to not play b11 at all.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    Also, like I said in the other thread, leela probably makes up for its weakness in understanding with extreme consistency.


  • Christian K at 2018-11-28

    Is leela a good hex ai? i am a bit out of the loop regarding those.

  • shalev at 2018-11-28

    I favor the foldback option

    Christian, yes, leela is very good. Probably 2500 or so, maybe higher.

  • shalev at 2018-11-28

    Alternatively, play as in the game but don’t follow up with 25.k3. Is white winning here? I think I prefer black there...

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    Shalev, your “foldback option” looks very good indeed. Your L7 idea, I would take white.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    But even the “foldback option” is far from a sure white win.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    I mean, far from a sure black win. White still has hopes.

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-11-28

    Well the foldback is the simplest and actually almost identical to my proposal.

    The difference is in when white should tenuki, I argue after foldback white tenuki now 

    however in my proposal it’s either early or the same, but worse position than foldback 

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    Arek, this is nonsense. In the foldback variation, white should tenuki here.



  • shalev at 2018-11-28

    Arek, you convinced me that your proposed move (15. g10) is pretty good. I didn’t see the point at first, but I see it now.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    Arek, leela changed his mind? Maybe it’s a new version, it’s already stronger! Damn! I had hoped to replay same position in the next tournement.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-28

    shalev, but your proposal and his proposal are good, sadly, he didn’t play neither in the real game!

  • lazyplayer at 2018-11-29

    Please replace my “but” with “both” ;)

  • Force majeure at 2018-12-01

    Arek, shalev, lazy: thanks for your insight. I’m astonished that despite being certain that leela played nonsense move, it is still very hard to punish such mistake. What do you think is its strength?

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-01

    Force, consistency, even when it is wrong, it is very close to being right anyway. The human player will make a small error and then it’s winning.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-01

    More formally, my argument is that the errors are “small”, that is, they can’t be easily “punished”.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-01

    Something similar is true in other games, even chess. Even chess engines make errors, but you’ve to compute next 30 exact half moves to prove them wrong. This is not practical so you’ll simply end up making another error and the game is again even. If you make an error however they’ll probably spot it and punish you. This is why the human players lose.

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2018-12-01

    ???

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2018-12-01

     The next Hex tournament will be something to watch. Do we think the end is in sight for human champions? 

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-01

    Bill, hehe, maybe my answer isn’t saying anything at all. Yes obviously it wins because it makes fewer errors. The more interesting question I guess which kind of errors it still makes? Well, hard to say. Probably it misses the sequences that require more experience. But then, compared to humans, probably it’s still stronger even in these cases.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-01

    Bill, me and Arek will make a serious attempt at next tournement to prevent that. I’m sure Shalev and Daniel will also make their attempts. We’ll see who wins. It’s even possible that someone wins against the bot but then loses against other human players and the bot will win the tournement anyway. Ahahah. We’ll see! Do you want to encourage us to play better? Then set up a prize! :)

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2018-12-01

    Should be very exciting :-)

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2018-12-02

    In my another game leela changed it’s play but I did not! I’m experimenting so that I have more knowledge about leela during the championship game :]

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-03

    Arek, it’s game over already, leela loves quick wins. :)

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2018-12-03

    Perhaps we can get MacieJ to play as well :)

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2018-12-04

    Is anyone in contact with Maciej ?

  • Force majeure at 2018-12-04

    Perhaps Its the last chance to beat leela :/

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-04

    Maciej quit playing because there were no opponents at his level, I was still so weak, Arek was not much better, shalev was not here...

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-04

    And by the way, we can learn and improve from leela play, so it’s not bad news actually. It’s just that we have to reach perfect play to have any chance of winning vs leela.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-04

    I would like to see some game of leela vs itself on 19x19... need to train for that and probably it’s so much harder.

  • ypercube at 2018-12-04

    Does leela play at size 19? Or is she strictly limited to 13?

  • Force majeure at 2018-12-04

    Lazy, don’t you think that now there may be few players, that could give Maciej some decent rivalry? Isn’t he curious about leela’s play?

    I support leela and thinkg that it’s good source of knowledge, however somehow I don’t like the idea of computer program becomming a champion.

  • Force majeure at 2018-12-05

    Btw is leela’s level fixed, or is it still improving?

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-05

    Still improving. Maciej probably hasn’t been informed there is now a worthy opponent.

  • lazyplayer at 2018-12-05

    Leela will improve forever because it’s using same code that is used for Go and Go is always under development.

  • gzero_bot at 2018-12-05

    Leela’s code is likely in almost fixed state and that it is the network that is mostly improving from further self-play/training.  Only Leela’s (hex) developer can say for sure how it has improved so much in the last few months.  There were large changes in the code base between leela go -> leela chess, so i assume there also largish changes to make it work with hex also.



  • Carroll ★ at 2018-12-05

    What about gzero_bot, is it same base and is your network still evolving, what’s its size... ?

  • gzero_bot at 2018-12-05

    @Carroll, gzero_bot current network was trained pure supervised with quite a large network (~128 filters, 8 layers... guessing, I can’t remember) from the self play generated up until July (when we had bot competition).  I attempted to add in all historical LG games on top of that, but it became significantly worse, and then I tried more self play again and it got worse also.  :(  Not sure what is going on, but I was thinking in starting a fresh run over xmas (ie from zero data).

    gzero is mostly an alpha zero clone, but a completely different code base from leela.  

Return to forum

Reply to this topic




Include game board: [game;id:123456] or [game;id:123456;move:20] or [game;id:123456;move:20;title:some text]