when playing in a 13x13 monthly tournament, there are no handicaps given between players with very different ratings. a high kyu player may play against a low kyu or even dan level player with no handicap stones. the lower rated player usually has the slight advantage of playing black, but still has to give the 8.5 komi to white. isn't komi supposed to negate the advantage of playing first? wouldn't it be more fair (since no handicap stones are given) to eliminate the large komi between players who are several ranks apart if the weaker player is playing black? i like a tough game against stronger players, but to get trashed and then give up a huge komi adds insult to injury.

I dont think so!

“Nohandi” tournaments are equal and have other purposes like handicap tournaments!

I like this tournaments because one have chance to play strongest player and learn something!

See http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=60402

Where I played against Sorin Gherman (probably strongest player on LG) and fairly and humble asked him to give me some handis (by passing). I promised him to resign if probably game will seems to lost for him.

He was very kind and 4 times passed… And also reject my offer to resign (but I still planed to resign in this case :)!

I was very happy to see how he could still beat me! :)

I am impressed and I like to know this nice game so deep like he! (although it seems I will never I will try it! :)))

---

Otherwise - if u are fair I think stronger player also dont like very much too big difference of strength in game! Try to ask they and probably they give u handies! :-)

I propose to see http://82821913.home.icq.com/2ndtourney.html for proper handies and to propose a little advantage for better player! :)

---

Other possibility are tournaments with reduced handicaps… (using same table of handies but ranking difference reduce by 2 for example… )

i agree that the best way to learn is to play stronger players, it is the main reason i play here. i don't mind losing to a stronger player, but it is frustrating to start a game with someone who is much stronger with no handicap and already be 8.5 points down.

unless you get a handicap, or as i am suggesting, eliminate or reduce the komi for the stronger player (if they are playing white), these games are excessively uneven. one of the amazing things about go is the way the handicapping system allows players of differing ranks to play a game where the weaker player has a chance.

in the 13x13 games, if we could either allow handicap stones or reduce the komi in some instances, i think the 13x13 matches would be more fair. komi is reduced to .5 in handicap matches in 19x19 to address this issue.

asking the stronger player to pass for a handicap is one way around this, but i think for tournaments that is not really a fair option. what if the stronger player only passes once when 3 or 4 stones would be more appropriate?

why not either allow handicap stones in 13x13 or at least drop komi when the difference in rank exceeds 4 levels?

You:

what if the stronger player only passes once when 3 or 4 stones would be more appropriate?

Me:

It is big question what is appropriate! I think it is apprpriate that 8dan player win and 9k player lost :-)

I think it could be VERY INAPROPRIATE if for ex. Sorin 4 times pass, then I won and our rating will be calculate like it was equal game! :-)

right. i am saying that the whole voluntary handicap is not a good idea. if you win with a handicap, that is fine, but you are right, your rating is modified as if it were an even game.

so can we either add the handicap stones as in the 19x19 game, or at least take away the high komi when a significantly stronger player is playing white.

I've used the multiple pass mechanism, by agreement, to play handicap games by invitation with both stronger and weaker players. Just don't do it when ratings are at stake–it would muddle things a bit. I played a game with Bela Nagy in which he gave me six stones. After passing for the fourth or fifth time he sent a note with his move: “I sure hope you don't pass.” Gracious with a sense of humor.

LOL. that would have been a great score for you! for non-tournament games, the passing method is fine. i have used it as well. i am talking primarily about the monthly tournaments. i like playing in them because it is such a great mix of players wih different levels. it just seems that the 13x13 needs either the handicapping system, or a reduction in komi when players of widely varying strengths play each other. giving someone like Bela Nagy a 8.5 point head start is rough for a 16-17 kyu player like me. as if it was not already an uphill battle.

Well, to add my little point of view to the discussion:

I played a lot of 13x13 games against Steffen Gluckselig lately, and although he is much better than me (6.kyu against me 13.kyu) I did have one game where I almost did win.

So what I am trying to say is that I dont really mind playing better players like this. I learn from them, and when I get the chance to win or to at least not lose -totally-, I am happy ;)

Adam

You are totaly right!!!!!

Once somebody (I don't can recall the name, maybe somebody can help me with that) made the following statement

“Instead of trying to win every game, I think one should try his best to make good plays and thus create game records that one can be proud of.”

Jos

ok guys, losing against higher rated players is not the issue. i have lost tons of games against players who are higher rated than me and i am not complaining about that. that is as it should be.

i am talking about an issue specific to the 13x13 format where i perceive an imbalance in the fairness of the game. my question is this:

in a 13x13 game with a wide variance in rating (say a 16 kyu against a 3 kyu), do weaker players really have a siginificant enough advantage playing black (playing first) that there should be no handicap stones and that white should get an 8.5 komi?

it does not disturb me that the 3 kyu will probably win. it disturbs me that the komi is not really serving its function of offsetting the black advantage. should the komi be reduced or should there be handicap stones as is done in the 19x19 format?

Ken, suppose you had White. Would you consider getting 8.5 stones too little? Too much? The 8.5 is set because it's believed to be closest to negating the advantage of moving first. Are you saying that – given that the goal is to create games were the difference in skill is the only advantage – that the komi should be less than 8.5?

Ken, suppose you had White. Would you consider getting 8.5

stones too little? Too much?

my rank is not that high, so i can't speak too much to this. i am currently a 17k in 13x13. if i were playing a 21k without handicap stones then i still don't think a 8.5 komi would be needed.

The 8.5 is set because it's believed to be closest to negating the advantage of moving first.

understood. but that number is used also in 9x9. 9x9 and 13x13 are very different animals. is it really the same for 13x13?

Are you saying that – given that the goal is to create games were the difference in skill is the only advantage – that the komi should be less than 8.5?

for the 13x13 board yes. either that, or allow handicap stones. if handicap stones were used, it could be on a different formula. for instance one stone for every 2-3k difference. maybe it would max out at 5 stones. the board is smaller and would be hard to fill with too many handicap stones and still be playable.

on the 19x19, weaker players get handicap stones and komi is .5.

are there statistics for how often and by how much weaker players lose to stronger players on the 13x13 board? i would be curious to know if there was a trend.

Actually, it is 5.5 in 9x9 (and also in 19x19). So 8.5 is indeed specific for 13x13.

my mistake. still, why no handicap stones? why such a high komi?

Actually, isn't it 6.5 in no-handicap game at 19x19?

It's higher in 13x13 because as the board size shrinks, the first move is worth more as a proportion of the points available on the board. But also as the board shrinks, there are fewer points available. Proportionately, the komi is even greater at 9x9, but since there are so few points available, the acutal number is fairly small.

It says 5.5 here.

The system automatically places handi may be a good approach, I think. If strength differs within 2 rating, fair game; if reaching to 3~4, one handi…and so forth.

Ken, suppose you had White. Would you consider getting 8.5

stones too little? Too much?

I feel like komi8.5 on 13 format is a little bit higher. 6.5 or 7.5 will be more suitable. (on IYT that is 4.5:))

BTW, I think NO handi at tournament doesn't seem sound. We don't wish a 1K to be the champain, do we? -,-

Sorry, I think HADICAP at tournament…

Sorry, I think HANDICAP at tournament…

i don't mind a 1k winner. if the point of having handicap is to have an even game, then black has as much right to win as white.

without the handicap and with the high komi, the weaker player doesn't have much chance of winning against a significantly stronger player. if you are already three strikes down (no handicap, high komi for white, and less skill), it looks pretty bleak for a double digit kyu player against a dan level player.

Ken, you don't seem to understand that in non-handicap games, the weaker player sometimes gets White. The komi should be set so that you have the same chance, whether you're playing Black or White. Maybe that cahnce is only 15% and you don't like it, but arguing for handicaps would be a different discussion from arguing for a different komi.

I´d like to support Ken. Komi is defined as an extra number of moku given to white meant to compensate for the allegded advantage black has when playing the first stone (6.5 points in 19x19 Go= 1.8%; 8.5 pts. in 13x13 Go= 5 % and 6.5 pts. in 9x9 Go= 8 % !!). If the weaker player must start in a 13x13 Go with an opponent of widely differing strengths he has with black the clear disadvantage of a very strong komi rule (white has the headstart of 5 % of all liberties) and no defined handicap which enables both to play each other on equal terms. I feel, black is unfairly handicapped under these conditions. Doesn´t it distort the character of the game? Should the weaker player always (the chance of less than 15% is no comfort) start with white in the 13x13 Go game with widely differing kyu-levels? It maybe be awkward to create a new definition for these situations, and we already have an existing one: the handicap.

Dvd, yes i do understand that weaker players often play white in non-handicap games. that was not the problem. the problem is when the weaker player IS black with a strong komi and no handicap.

however, I think Robin may have hit on a very elegant solution. what if in non-handicap 13x13 games, white is always the weaker player? that would at least help get them off to a good start, or at least not off to a bad start being 8.5 moku behind before the first stone hits the board. this way we avoid introducing new handicap rules or monkeying around with the komi. aside from being slightly untraditional, what would be so difficult or unfair about this?

Then it is not an even game. If you want handicap tournaments in 13x13, that's fine. The traditional 1-stone handicap is for the weaker player to Black, automatically move first. With modern komi, White still wins ties, because he's assigned a komi of .5, but that's less than what the komi would be without a handicap.

But if we're to have tournaments decided strictly on strength of play (as the Championships and Rating Tournaments are even in 19x19) then the komi must be set so that the chances with White are the same as with Black.

What you still haven't done, is show that as a weaker player you're at more of a disadvantage playing Black giving 8.5 stones than you are playing White and receiving 8.5 stones. If a survey of results shows that when the rating differences are large, White has a records significantly above .500, then you'd have a strong argument for changing the komi.

dvd,

Then it is not an even game. If you want handicap tournaments in 13x13, that's fine. The traditional 1-stone handicap is for the weaker player to Black, automatically move first. With modern komi, White still wins ties, because he's assigned a komi of .5, but that's less than what the komi would be without a handicap.

i don't understand what you are getting at here. how is white always being the weaker player not an even game?

But if we're to have tournaments decided strictly on strength of play (as the Championships and Rating Tournaments are even in 19x19) then the komi must be set so that the chances with White are the same as with Black.

rating tournaments are not played against players of widely varying strength. as for the championship tournaments, i wasn't really focusing on those, but maybe the same arguments apply. my suggestion only related to 13x13 monthly tournaments.

What you still haven't done, is show that as a weaker player you're at more of a disadvantage playing Black giving 8.5 stones than you are playing White and receiving 8.5 stones. If a survey of results shows that when the rating differences are large, White has a records significantly above .500, then you'd have a strong argument for changing the komi.

i don't have the resources for such a study or access to that data. perhaps richard does. i'm not here to make a statistical argument, i am basing my argument on what i have experienced. i experience this disadvantage when i play. statistical or not, it is real to me. (note to other high kyu players - feel free to chime in here).

so again, what is the big deal if in games where there is a for example an 8 level or more difference between players, the weaker player plays white?

Nothing, Ken. But that would be another type of tournament.

For now the monthly cup is a tournament of randomly (ok, not really randomly) choosen players with widely varying skill playing all even games in the first round. Thats the type and may be the charme of this tournament. In Go maybe there are better ways to find interesting games, so if you don't like this form of tournaments, feel free to chose another way for setting up interesting games. :-)

riverstone

i've heard this argument before: that is the way it is, go somewhere else if you don't like it. ok.

i don't think that what I am talking about would change the 13x13 monthly cup into a different kind of tournament. i was only exploring simple (i thought) modifications to make the tournament more fair when the difference in skill level between players gets extreme. i truly think robin is on to something.

i thought one of the real fundamental charms of go was the elegance with which simple rules can allow two players of very different skill have a game that is challenging to both and unfair advantages are minimized. i do not have statistics to prove my case that it is indeed unfair as it is now, but i do know what it feels like to play under these conditions.

the whole purpose of this thread was to gauge who else felt this way about the 8.5 komi, and propose a simple suggestion or two to make the game feel more fair. evidently i am barking up the wrong tree.

I'm rated slightly worse than you, Ken. When I play a higher-rated player, I feel a large disadvantage. But I feel that whether I'm playng Black or White. I know that moving first is a big factor. Is the difference between making the first move and facing the first move as big as 17 stones in the score? I don't know. I haven't played enough games at 13x13 to be confident in my perception. I wouldn't be surprised if playing first was even bigger than that.

I would like to be able to play handicap games of 13x13.