i was thinking..what if we'd play hex with a 'missing link'.

for instance take a 15x15 hex board and take out the middle 'hex' (so u have a hexboard with a little hole in the middle). on the smaller boards it's easy to see that this results in a tie, but what with bigger boards? it sure gives the option to tie (wouldn't that be fairer than the swap rule?) … anyway, just an idea

something like blackhole reversi then, it can be interesting

Another varient might be alternating edge colors. Or groups of alternating edge colors.

“…fairer than the swap rule…” It sounds like you don't want the swap rule in effect for this variant. That would give the first player a large advantage. The second player would be struggling just to hold a draw. What's unfair about the swap rule?

In fact, if a player is strong enough to force a win when moving first in the central cell without the swap rule in regular Hex, then that player could also force a draw when moving second in your variant, simply by playing as though the central cell were occupied by one of his/her tokens. Boring! But thanks for trying.

I agree with david. I wouldn't like that variant for the reason it chages the nature of the game and it allows draws. I would like variants at different board shapes (eg in a hexagon shape). I would like variants where the two black and white edges are not at top, bottom, left, right but say occupy half of adjacent edges. Or black edges are bigger than white edges. That might give one player the advantage (like in go where starts with already placed stones).

Another possibility would be “football Hex”. This game takes place in 3D, on a “football” consisting of hexagons and pentagons. There are no edges to connect, so the point is to make a connection around your opponent - “head to tail”. It has 2 disadvantages, as I see it: It would be hard to implement on the site, and the swap rule would have little meaning (the only 2 possible openings would be playing a hexagon or playing a pentagon). But I sure would love to try this game once!!! :-)

it's not really an unfairness about the swaprule david, but about the hexgame in total…the unfairness is quite simple to express, impossible to accomplish…yet : 'First to move (or swap) has the win'..i just rather see a game where perfect play results in a tie, but that's just me.

The missing hex in the middle was just a suggestion, u got take out a corner too, which prolly would be much tougher to tie (if not impossible) in perfect play than a centerpiece.

Okay, I tend to agree that a game where draws are possible might be better than one like Hex where they are impossible, as long as draws are rare. That's one reason I like Twixt better than Hex. But a central forbidden cell makes draws too common. I don't understand what you are suggesting regarding a corner cell. Which corner, obtuse or acute? And why would that help reduce draws? You used the word “too” which implies this is in addition to a forbidden center cell. The more forbidden cells the board has, the more likely draws become, not less. If you mean to have a forbidden corner instead of the central cell, it depends on which corner. If an acute corner, leaving out the swap rule as I assume you intend, then the first player wins, as was proven by the game's inventor, John Nash. If an obtuse corner cell is forbidden, the 2nd player can draw, perhaps not as easily as when the center cell is forbidden, but still easily enough to make this a less interesting game. I have a counter suggestion. Play Twixt instead. :-)

if perfect play ends in a tie, i wouldn't be bothered with the swap option, that would prevent first player to open strong. i don't have enough gameknowledge to know how frequent the game would end in a draw if an obtuse corner would be removed, i would take of the hex piece that would make the game most likely to not end in a draw.

and yes this makes twixt a more interesting game (for me), u got any idea of the 'draw-occurance'(%)?

It depends on the level of play. Of the 500+ games completed so far here on LG, I don't think there has been a single draw. (Has there?) But most of those games were between newbies, or newbies versus more experienced players. PBMserv has a stronger field, and of the 800+ games that were played there since the server lost its data a couple years ago, only 3 were draws. Combining the two databases, that's less than 0.23%. But that's not a very meaningful statistic, since relatively few games between experienced players are included, and even the strongest players are arguably not as strong at Twixt as, say, Go players are at Go, or chess players are at chess. We still have a lot to learn about openings.

Tray Dedrickson and I drew a game, but that's only because we knew the no-removing-bridges rule but didn't know the crossing-your-own-bridges rule.

I have a few observations. First, the lack of ties is the great beauty of hex, Not a problem with it. Look at chess and look at the dismay and dispair over grandmaster ties…

Second, the swap rule makes hex a magnificent almost exactly equal game for both sides…yet with (thankfully) No ties.

Third, hex is best played on exactly the board we are playing on, But it could be played on any topographical surface with any board shapes…even (see Cameron Browne, Hex Strategy) a map of the United States!

there is a small contradiction in your arguements, in 1 and 2 u seem to attack a possible tie, while in statement 3 u say it's even possible to play on a map of the united states, which is a possible tie (4 states touch in 1 point)

i tried to get the option of drawing to a minimum, i agree that chess, and even worse, checkers have a far to big amount of draws.

the 0.23% draw-occurance in twixt sounds very nice to me…at least i don't start a game knowing i'm in a lost position…

personally, I like it much better with when no tie is possible

Michael, if you like the idea of not starting in a lost position, then keep that in mind when you start a game of hex…nobody here is good enough at hex to determine a win from the first move…

Can I ask:

1) Is the point in a game having draws that we assume it means that perfect play leads to a draw? This being an advantage as it means that one player isn't fighting aganist what should be a loss for him?

2) Or is it something else? Either way, what exactly is the problem with no draws in Hex? I mean does anyone feel that they can't win giong first because of the swap rule? I certainly don't, and if I did, I'd play no a bigger board :-)

3) Am I missing something?

1) Is the point in a game having draws that we assume it means that perfect play leads to a draw?

No. 6x6 reversi is solved and perfect play leads to a win for white.

Nono, I meant:

Is the reason why DavidJ (among others) thinks that having a draw possibility is better than not, becaeuse, in Hex/Twixt he/they feel that it means going first may not be a necessary loss and so somehow, the game is fairer?

I know that there exist games where draws are possible but do not arise from perfect play (a no komi game of go for example)