I have an interesting seki situation in game #5893. There is a decisive seki. If the points and stones in the seki areas _are_ counted as points, then I lose, but if no points are counted, or just territory (i.e. not opponents stones) are counted, then I win.
Does anyone know the ruling on this. I know for a fact that there are different rules sets that would interpret this situation differently.
For what it is worth, the computer counting system is counting both the territory and the stones as points for my opponent. I am not sure, however, whether this is an intentional rule interpretation, or just a byproduct of some other counting algorithm.
Little Golem uses Japanese rules (even though they are so complicated that Rio cannot implement them properly).
As far as I understand Japanese rules, the white stones at G1 and H1 are dead, by Article 6.
(It would be better for Black to actually capture them though.)
But Black has has no territory in this corner, because there is no territory in seki under Japanese/Korean rules.
So White wins.
(The point at D2 is also not territory.)
That's seki indeed (no side can capture the other), but... no points are counted in seki. So (for his own good) black has to capture those two stones first. Then white will play another stone inside to preserve seki (assume two of the E4, E5 and E6 dame are filled). Black captures again.
Score: B 10 + 6 prisoners = 16 points; W 11 + 1 prisoner + 5.5 = 17.5 points. White wins.
If both players had played their best moves from this position,
the result would have been as Bela Nagy said. White would have
won by 1.5 points.
But, both players passed. So the game is over. The two stones
G1 and H1 are part of the seki, and have not been captured, so
they are not prisoners. Also the stone which White would have
had to throw in there has not been played, so is not a prisoner.
White has won by 4.5 points.
I think black won! Because two pass is end of game.
Next procedure is remove dead stones. 2 stones are dead
because definition -> because black can kill them.
Imagine situation where I put one stone to your safe territory and will argue that u have to kill it so your teritorry is less by 4 points! ;-)
So by my oppinion Black is not obligued to kill them because white cannot use this 2 stones to kill any black group. But 2 stones are not alive because black can kill them without any danger of his life... :-)
Don't you just love Japanese rules? You can argue for days about things which under any other ruleset would be decided by playing a few more moves...
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Nick Wedd says that the two white stones are alive and are part of the seki.
But as far as I can see they are dead (Article 7) and therefore not in seki (Article 8).
(But I would would have been of the same opinion as Nick had I not looked at the rules.)
Nick also says that the game is over and so cannot be played out as Bela Nagy suggests.
But the game isn't over, it has merely stopped, and therefore either player can request resumption (Article 9).
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liso says that Black has won, because the two white stones are dead. But even if these stones are dead (as appears to be the case), Black still loses, because there is no territory in seki (Article 8).
Stephen wrote: "liso says that Black has won, because the two white stones are dead. But even if these stones are dead (as appears to be the case), Black still loses, because there is no territory in seki (Article 8). "
Hmm. It is interesting argument! I agree and now see that it is more complicated like I saw. :-) Seems u are right.
Thanx. It is seki (because black cannot live without dame point) so territory is not count and white is winner also in possibility if 2 white stones are prisoners.
In understanding the japanese rules you cannot just read the articles, you must read the commentarys as well. The two stones at g1/h1 is NOT dead as the surrounding stones are alive in a seki. This is dicussed in Commentary on Article 10, Determining the Result, Clause 1. In fact diagram 17 is similar to the conditions in this game.
So the stones at g1/h1 should not be marked dead before the game score is calculated.
There is a small problem here however. The point at d2 will probably be calculated as white territory by the scoring algorithm. As the white stones are alive in seki that point should not be calculated. In certain conditions this could affect the outcome of the game, but that is not the case here. White win anyhow.
Thanks! I had overlooked this part of Article 10. So the two white stones are dead, but they are not counted as prisoners.
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The Little Golem scoring mechanism needs to be enhanced so that it's possible to mark a point like D2 as non-scoring.
I also tried to say (with my poor english) that 2 white stones are not dead. :-) Also I wanted to say that in this position 2 prisoners for black does not help him because territory is not counted...
By the way, I must apologize to Nick Wedd for saying that he said that the two white stones are alive. He didn't say that at all, he just said that they are not prisoners (which is correct).
The game is still at the stage of confirming territory and life and death, however, so Black has the right to request resumption and capture these stones.
I will enhance socring system - to mark area as area in seki (red color). I agree with Bela Nagy - position is won for white. BTW according to SST rules is game equal: 40.5 - 40.5
Little Golem