This guy Irbis will not resign game!!

Hello people is there anyone that get this foolish guy to resign game he has lost and he should loose the game and I'm tired of him making excuses and fusing around this guy should be banned for wasting time on games and making excuses!!!

Scotty, it's YOU who have lost that game. Don't you see that his group is alive, and that you can't kill it? Just accept his score and start a new game.

This

is the game.

Incredible! It's not even complicated. And you claimed that one black

group was dead, then both and then the other ... Make up your mind first.

In game 1296716, both of Irbis's black groups are alive. Irbis has offered the correct score, Black 26 to White 12.5. I don't know why you would claim either Black group is dead, Scotty, but if you really think so, just go ahead and capture it.

Possibly one should be a bit more careful with using words like 'foolish' and 'banned'!

:-)

and with words like 'loose'

if you don't get a bit more loose you might lose something.

http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/

well 9/10 sites with playing striaght to the end he would lose and these go rules a stupid in my opinion so hes lost the game not me so u should be telling him to resign

and its not at the end and I'll keep this game going forever

You made it very clear that you have no idea about the game. And you sounded like an 8 year old.

'If I didn't win the rules are stupid'...

Scotty, the rules of go are somewhat complicated (compared to other games at this site), but they are thousands of years old. Just because you don't like the rules, does not mean they are going to suddenly change to what you think they should be. I strongly recommend that you exercise good sportsmanship and acknowledge your defeat and resign gracefully. Then, you can read up a bit on go strategy if you want to improve at the game, or, if you still don't like the rules, you can find a different game to play...there are plenty here at this site you might like. games like breakthrough and four-in-a-row are easy to learn the rules (but not necessarily easy to master). So again, I recommend a graceful resignation. no need for you to bang your head against the wall on this issue, you won't succeed in cracking the wall, it is made out of brick.

Could you let us know what sites would have White win that game? I don't need to see 9/10 of them, just 1 of them.

The nice thing is that if you think you can capture a piece, you can just do it. You don't have to force him to resign. Just capture the group if you think it's dead. The burden is not on him to prove that it's alive, rather it's on you to prove that it's dead.

If not, maybe you should be banned for wasting time and making excuses? ;)

It's too bad the conversation between the players isn't in the public game record. I'd like to see what was being said. :)

theres a site yahoo games go u'll see some rules which should be on here

and also Ray don't u dare tell me to resign cause I"ll keep playing it until Irbis resigns

and I do have good sportsmanship and the rules had came from yahoo games and screwed it up pretty well no offense.

Can you describe to us why you think you've won the game? What rule specifically do you think is not being followed? If you feel a group is dead, then you should be able to kill it, without forcing a resignation. Rather than get defensive and angry, help us learn what you see as the error.

Are you sure you're looking at the same game? This isn't gomoku. I find it difficult to believe that yahoo games doesn't follow the basic rules of life & death.

I think this might help you understand:

http://games.yahoo.com/help/rules/go&tab=goendgame2

It's okay, this can be a goofy game. It took me a while to really understand it, too! We're all in it together, so let's cooperate, okay? There's an old Go saying: "Quickly lose your first 100 games." NOBODY really "gets" it at first. We're all in the same boat! There's no need to be angry and insulting. That's very much *not* the right attitude for Go. :)

"unhappy kid" ??

"If I stare at it long enough, this water will turn into wine!" Priceless :-D

On yahoo games, you can bully someone into resigning. It's much harder here, as it is turn based. I wouldn't call that different rules, though.

I am realy curious why do you think you have won, Scotty. By counting points you are behind, no group is dead, so what is it?

Ah, right, Unhappy Kid. I think we have a winner!

Wasn't Unhappy Kid really good at Dots & Boxes?

Scotty: "I'll keep this game going forever".

Yeah, right. But in this site, forever lasts until the admin decides. Which I hope will be soon.

Scotty, each of black's groups possess two eyes and white's group possesses two eyes so all the groups are alive. Your opponent has won and you have lost. It is quite clear. What is it that you find hard to see?

in my opinion, a very good argument for "most capture" go rules ...

Are there really somewhere go rules which would declare this a win for Typoon, .... that would be strange go...

this is a strange go the yahoo games one is perfectly correct none of u know that

and he must keep clicking in his territory until he cannot make a move then I take his points and he looses and thats how it ment to be played not these silly rules so the admins should fix up this rule.

What you are thinking about is No Pass Go, which is a variant of the normal Go (played here). In No Pass Go you cannot pass, so you will end up needing to play in your own territory and eventually suicide yourself. In Traditional Go, a group is considered alive when it has two eyes, points that are completely surrounded by stones of your own colour.

In this game, h9, f8, c1, c3, c5 and d4 are all black eyes. Therefore his two groups are considered alive. Points are calculated by adding your number of empty intersections and your number of captures. So black has 6 + 20 = 26 points and white has 9 + 5.5 (komi, points given to white for playing second) = 14.5 points. So black wins by 11.5 points.

Scotty, can you provide a link to this rule on yahoo?

Also, do you think it might be more productive if you spoke with others in a conversational tone, rather than constantly throwing out insults?

I understand, I was a teenager once myself, and I can still find myself getting overly defensive when I suspect I'm in the wrong... but c'mon now. When EVERYBODY is telling you the same thing, there's a distinct possibility that they're right. :)

Or you're just a troll.

I sent a message to the Webmaster asking that this game be ended.

Scotty, if you're ever interested in learning how to play this game, I will be more than happy to help you.

Well, go on yahoo can actually get down to a No Pass Go game. It lacks a resolution phase, so if both players pass and they don't agree to the score, the first player that passed gets to play again. So either he passes and this cycle starts again or he plays a move, leading to No Pass Go.

i think what happens is the score is counted, the player disputes the score, leading to you having to play without passing. then the player may pass. so every time he disputes he comes out a stone ahead in certain board formations. i discovered the only way to counter this is to fight fire with fire, disputing also, which leads to a tedious game but a fair result, provided players alternate disputes equally.

*it's only the move immediately after notice of scoring dispute which cannot be a 'pass'.

Very interesting variant, this yahoo NoPassGo. In your case, Scotty, where Irbis has two separate regions, you'd really win with your single region ...

Assuming you're not a troll, but just never heard of "real go" before:

According to the rules here, the game was over in move 45, and Irbis wins by 4.5 (13 + 5.5komi - 23) points.

Your attacks until move 55 do not harm, as Irbis has to respond.

Your move 56 is a mistake, according to the rules here.

Irbis responses 59 and 63 were not really necessary, I guess he just wanted to show you that your "attacks" (NoPassGo moves) are useless.

Your move 64 into your own region should have made clear to Irbis that you both play two different games.

You found the "pass" link finally in move 70. The first score offer in move 71 is too high regarding the original score, but that does not matter here. There's only win / lose, no matter how narrow.

You already noticed that "everybody" now expects you to resign this game ;)

Welcome to LittleGolem and have fun!

link test: move 45

Oh! This is an interesting topic. Now I've finally understood why he said something like: you loose 'because u passed to much'.

Scotty

in the Yahoo games rules (under counting and winning) it states that a player scores 1 point for each point of territory at the end of the game and also [color=red]a point for each prisoner captured[/color]

Your opponent has 20 prisoners and you none. So, even though you have more vacant points you lose even under Yahoo go rules.

Take it like a man. We all lose more games than we like to.

well all of u are so rude so I'll keep this game going until he gives up if I get banned I don't care

Scotty, I agree that some people have been a little rude, and I'm sorry about that.

But have you not been reading your own posts? They're peppered with insults about how we're stupid and don't know the rules.

As it turns out, you're familiar with a system that is actually a bit of a bug. That's not how Go is played most places. You said 9/10 sites would play that way. You've provided 1. How about 2 more?

Remember how angry you were when you thought someone else was needlessly holding up the game? Well, as it it turns out. *YOU* are the one needlessly holding up the game. So can you understand how people might be frustrated with you? Why is it that *you're* allowed to become upset and call people stupid, but that others aren't allowed to become frustrated with you? It's the *exact same reason*.

You were very vague with what you thought was the problem, so please be forgiving that it took us a while to understand what you meant. How about you be the bigger person here?

Thanks for the information on this, Jean and stickman!

Scotty,

Noone has been rude, except yourself. Even under your rules you lost. period.

You should have resigned when you had no hope of winning (by ALL rulesets) without playing to the bitter end. If your opponent played something AFTER WINNING THE GAME that made him lose under some weird rules not used in any serious go context, it is not his fault. He had probably never heard of these rules, like most of us. That cannot be called go and is not what is played here in LG.

Well, I think now we can understand that Scotty was operating under a system that allowed him to force his opponent to fill in his own eyespace. Since he thought that was normal Go, this place seemed weird.

With that perspective in mind, many things could be seen as rude:

"Incredible! It's not even complicated."

"'foolish' and 'banned'!"

"you sounded like an 8 year old"

"wasting time and making excuses"

"unhappy kid"

"Priceless"

"you can bully"

"you're just a troll"

…

Now, yes, Scotty has *also* been very rude and argumentative, but two wrongs don't make a right. Since he felt like it should have been very obvious to all of us what the "proper" rules were in his perspective, I can see how our responses could be interpreted.

Hopefully Scotty now understands that it would have been more helpful had he simply come to us and attempted a discussion of the specific rule, rather than making assumptions and throwing out insults, but we could have handled ourselves better, too.

Remember, we have people from all backgrounds and experience levels coming together. We should have held ourselves to a higher standard.

I apologize if I came off as rude or insulting, Scotty. I hope you can accept this and move forward with productive conversation. We only want to help you understand this beautiful ancient game. Yahoo is in fact the site that implements it incorrectly. LG has it right. It's a great game, but it takes a while to understand it. If you need more help understanding this, I'd be happy to provide you with some resources.

-p.

@ Irbis, if you have not done so already, you should send a message to the webmaster (Richard M) asking for him to adjudicate the game. He sometimes takes a few days to respond, but he will likely end the game for you. I see you are relatively new at this site. Don't worry, most players here are very respectful...

I just stumbled over this story. This is a very interesting story.

Someone learned the Go rules by Yahoo, but learned different rules,

the "no-pass"-rules, and believes these are the right rules for Go.

This is due to the Japanese rules, which have this tiny little flaw,

that at the end dead stones are removed, but you cannot define what

dead stones are. So you need crutches like the dispute phase, which

are a little awkward, as they might change the score if you apply

them naively. (In case of Yahoo they apperently change the score

in certain cases drasticly). I know this is getting more and more

off topic, but to me this points so strongly towards the chinese rules.

These are completely clear with no tiny little flaw. Its a pity that

chinese rules are not the standard on internet servers. But you might

know that countries like USA and France put chinese rules at the

heart of there national rules, even if many players in these countries

dont really know about this. I am teaching Go to children in Germany, which

is a country with Japanese rules, but I teach them chinese rules, as they

are clear.

The No-Pass rule in itself is in my eyes also a quite respectable rule

and leads also to interesting games. There is a game called "Gonnect" which

leads in case of a deadlock to No-Pass Go. There is even a bit of mathematical

theory for No pass go. The value of eyes gets computed in the style

of combinatorial game theory.

All in all, this story will always be in my brain, if I talk with fellow

Go players about the rule question.

I would be very interested to learn if there are many games on Yahoo,

which are really decided in the No Pass style, or is it just Typ00n Scotty

who decides his games this way. I played some years ago a couple of games

on yahoo. at that time all of my oponents knew the rules of Go as we

all know them, so we never entered any dispute phase. Are there

more players on Yahoo nowadays like Typ00n Scotty? Yahoo is big

in games like Mc Donalds is in american style fast food. Isn't it?

Wouldnt that be interesting? A parallel world emerging? Sounds unlikely

but fascinating.

@Bernhard Herwig: Reading a little bit on Sensei's Library some days ago I somehow stranded at No Pass Go and stumbled upon an article which says it's a wide spread desease on yahoo that the games end like this and they recommend all players to use other platforms for playing online.

I totally agree on Chinese rules. That really solves the problem. As you evolve in go you end up thinking Japanese style, but that is too complicated for beginners and the result is almost the same.

Once you have to explain to somebody why the Bent Four in the corner is dead, you know Japanese rules aren't meant for beginners. They also give bad habits, such as not filling dame in the endgame.

Chinese rules make much more sense, and you don't even have to track prisoners, as they don't count in the final score. The dispute phase is also a lot easier to handle. If you don't agree, just keep on playing. No need for hypothetical plays with special rules.

this discussion has been in reruns for years (in fact now i think it's time for someone to chime in on AGA rules) and nothing ever changes. The game is broken.

I would challenge anyone with a game server to institute "most capture" rules, which is the rule set used most commonly by casual players in Asia, if what i read is correct. these rulesets in question are mainly for 1 dan+ players, playing in serious tournaments. They require referees.