another cheating thread

'cause the other one is too damn big! (180 posts, last count)

I'm as disheartened (a mild term) as the next Chess player about the cheating that's been documented over the board, around the world. It has actually gone on, in one form or another, for a real long time. I feel that, for the most part this has been happening where money, prestige and prizes are at stake. It's one reason I stick to the amateur tournaments (I'm class B USCF, tournament player for 40 years).

I have heard that cheating has been an ongoing problem at ICC; it's one reason I don't hang there (and the money is another).

But why cheat here? And furthermore, why care??

I mean, there are no cash prizes, nothing is at stake, there's no 'prestige' to be gained (outside our own group) - if individuals are using software to analyze their moves (before they make them), is it possible that they are doing it 'for fun' or for educational value?

I mean - I suppose that there are total jerks in all walks of life, and there is no escaping that. If somebody beats me, or wins a tournament here by using Rybka - well, exactly who are they bragging about it to? Perhaps they are bragging to one of the other of their multiple personalities??

If I lose to somebody cheating with software, I have still played a game; I still got useful practice and Chess learning in. It's true - if I felt like getting creamed by software, I wouldn't need to do that here - I have around ten programs that mop the floor with me installed on my computer. I'd rather be playing against a fellow human, and certainly would feel better in knowing I have a chance to win.

But whether I lose to a human or an engine, presumably I'll never really know - it's just a game to me. Like any player, I'd rather win than lose, but I've been having fun just playing here - and the worthwhile effort goes to improving my skills at games.

And ratings here aren't going anyplace outside of this site. It may be true that lurking cheaters could be artificially driving down ratings - but if that is the case, then we are all in the same boat, really, and all sharing the same handicap. It evens out.

Chess is not the only game here where world class software is available; I know that it is NOT for Twixt, but certainly is for Reversi, Dots and Boxes, and 4-in-a-Row - you can easily obtain, and cheat with software that will cream all opponents - unless they, too, are cheating with software (in which case, it becomes interesting - this has been tried yearly with the 'Advanced Chess' matches in Leon).

So if somebody could enlighten me, I would appreciate it. What is the point, I ask, of spending time at this website watching your software wipe out unsuspecting opponents? I guess I just don't understand the mental set. (meow)

Well that's been discussed long and deep, without any major insights.

Some people just like to do that, it seems, and they get satisfaction from making some other (personally unknown) human lose by the moves they copy from their software. I think psychologically, it is the same kind of satisfaction you get when you watch a movie and your hero is finishing off the bad guys - none of it is your doing, but it makes you fell good, as if you had done it. Society generally sees it as a bad thing in the cheating case, but the brain still enjoys it the same way. (hey just guessing - I'm no psychologist, just an amateur)

Thanks for your interesting reply. Yes - maybe it's like that for some. I, for one, DO love when the hero polishes off the villain in a movie; but the idea of translating that emotion to having software polish off opponents wouldn't occur to me.

I'm fairly new here - only been a couple of months - so I am just finding out some of the issues I've been missing. I see, for example, that cheating has been even more widespread over at the Reversi games. I spent a while reading threads over there - and also researching the current state of Othello software; actually, I learned quite a lot about the game in the process! (Unfortunately, it kept me up all night!)

But, besides using software, there appears to be something else going on here - and I've already experienced this myself. Players are manipulating scores in the tournaments by throwing games against their pals, or creating multiple log ins and throwing games against themself. etc. Not only has this happened in tournaments I've played, but I've seen it done countless times while browsing through cross-tables (and, of course, reading old threads).

Now - what's the point here? The satisfaction of seeing software defeat a player is not an issue. Manipulating tournament scores in this manner will screw up all subsequent results of course; in some scenarios I guess it can even lead to a 'win' for the cheater.

But what is gained? Heck, even if some jerk manipulates their way all the way up to a championship - does that 'get' them anything? I mean, your reward here is to see 'your name in lights' at the top left of the screen! That's about it - far as I can tell. No money; no prizes; no notoriety; no invitations to international events; no new friends; no women. So what then? All that effort, all that lying and cheating, all that deliberate mischief to see your screen name on the top of a web page?

But maybe that's the thing. Some individuals - frequently 'troubled' youths, but also psychologically frustrated adults - seem to get a degree of satisfaction from ruining positive experiences for others. Trolls in the internet. I'm reminded of an example of what's happening in Milwaukee - my brother lives there, and keeps sending me articles like this one::

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/112782034.html

What's happening is that the brand new, beautiful shopping malls have become havens for gang violence; the malls now shut down at 6PM, even on Friday and Saturday evenings! This is really pathetic, and certainly going to a mall to shop and enjoy the atmosphere has become a valuable and enjoyable experience for many people (no, not me). These gangs don't need a place to hang out and attack each other - they have a whole city for that; no, they are targeting malls to make some sort of 'statement', and the effect is to see that a nice activity is denied to the law abiding public.

Well, I"m not sure how analogous that is, but I thought I'd mention it. Thanks again for the reply, Aganju.

(meow)