JAGO link

Jago link has just disappeared. Now you can see a "eidogo player" link.

A great nice improvement in this site! :D

eido is nice

but does not work on symbian Series 60

Does Jago?

No, sorry to give that impression

in fact with eido at least the eido interface opens up on my nokia e90, but there are no underlying scripts to do anything.

Great link!

Thank you. I didn't know EIDOGO and find it very useful, much better than any other editor I have tried before.

The joseki database with pro games is fantastic. I could spend days finding games using this. ** Warning ** It may create addiction ;-)

Also the score estimation will probably convince players to resign before reaching this point:

http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1074559

I would consider using the score-estimation for a game in progress to be cheating.

hm. I'm not yet sure if I agree or not.

What about if I count the score myself? Where is the line where cheating begins?

If the program is doing your calculation for you, it's cheating. In Jago, all stones were assumed alive unless you marked them dead. That's fine. I suspect Eidogo will let you do the same thing, but I haven't looked. But if you tell Eidogo to do the scoring and it surprises you, that will affect your play based on its analysis. That's not fine.

I see. I agree.

However, the scoring routine is pretty bad. I went to some old games, and let them 'estimate' after each play. Often the scoring blindly ignores obviously dead groups and counts them even with territory (and I mean really obviously dead). Sometimes a play in the lower left corner suddenly counts the upper right corner for the other party, and so on. It is consistent in that it calculates the same result for the same situation, but otherwise of limited usefulness.

Still, your logic applies. It gives you ideas in where to play next, because a large area is shown undecided. It helped me see which moves majorly contributed to me loosing (and that's good, but only if I use it after the game).

Therefore, it is a help, even double-edged, so it's a no-no.

Considering that, it is not a good thing that there is a 'cheat'-button right on the page. :-(

nothing you couldn't do before!

No. Scoring is not cheating.

When the score means something it is way too late to do anything about it.

If the scoring tells you something you don't know, then you are probably worse than 25k. The best thing is play 100 games on KGS and then come back. Being 25kyu is a disease that can be cured in 2 weeks, but at the rate played in LG (about 6 months per game) that will take years. If you are 25kyu, you have to play 30 min games, not 6 month games.

JAGO can count the score, EIDOGO does not.

Counting the score is fair and helpfull for both and improves the game.

I want JAGO back!

We can have both links there.

zgreL, actually EidoGo counts score quite accurately.

I agree eido score count is good, but occasionally it seems to act 'stupid' about some positions

The EidoGo counting alg seems buggy, sometimes the result is not reasonable. I have even observed, after I edited a position, that a block of stones is separated: one part alive, the other dead.

Using programs to evaluate the score doesn't help your strenght at all. Especially during the middle game is important to learn to estimate by yourself. Even the endgame is not as simple, sente-gote relations can change dramaticaly the result from the computer counting.

Sorry for this comment, I didn't wanted to sound as a teacher. I would say something like this in my go club but here, there are not only go players. So any help to enjoy the game should be fine. Go ahead un use whatever suit you.

@Creole: Don't be sorry, what you said is absolutely right. Stating a - potentially unpopular - fact is never a reason to be sorry.

@Thomas: The EidoGo algorithm only ever uses the end of the main line for score estimation, no matter where you are and what you try.

So if you want it to estimate a variant, you have to duplicate the view, and play the variant as new 'mainline'. It's cumbersome, but it works.

And yes, I see it as a bug too.

by the way, EidoGo counting is now disabled. Your prayers have been heard.

IMO

that is a pity

There are always some opponents who should be encouraged to count, so that they do not go on while hopelessly behind.

personally I dont mind how my opponents find better or more interesting moves as long as they do :-)

maybe too many people were counting with eidogo (which i guess, just call gnugo for an estimation) and it was too heavy for eidogo server...

I can see multiple sides of this. These are just exhibition games, and people should be able to use tools as they improve. But for my own sake, I'm glad it's gone. I usually would only use the score to verify my quick assessment of the game, but sometimes I was wrong, or it would mark a group dead that I had overlooked I could kill, etc. It was making me lazy. I'd rather count for myself.

In any case counting liberties is far more important for learning shape, and you have to do that yourself!!

for whoever cares: Eidogo counting works again.

With the same old bug (only ever estimating the main line situation)