Why aren't rated games handicap games?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the challenge of an even game against a strong opponent, and the thrill of destroying a weaker opponent... but just wondering why the rated games from the waiting room don't have a handicap?

My 5 cents:

Because this site was designed by a chess player.

And the chess player might have a point here: handicap would alter the probability of the stronger player winning the game, thus altering the rating change, if this is calculated according to the Elo system. Of course, I wouldn't oppose to handicap in rated games but would then suggest that the rating formulae be adjusted accordingly (which might turn out to be quite hard to do).

If the adjustment DO prove to be that hard, an midway alternative would be implement handicap games as a go variant, so that both handicap and regular games are avaiable in the waiting room (once againg, the stronger player should be advised that he'll probably lose rating points in the long run).

The monthly cups are rated and handicapped, though. Does that screw things up? What's the difference between that and the regular games? Are they rated differently?

I don't really know all that much about it, but isn't the whole point of the handicap to make it play similarly to an even game between equally-skilled opponents? When I play against friends in person, we usually adjust the handicap after three consecutive wins. It evens itself out in the long run.

I think I read in the description of the calculation that handicapped games are rated accordingly so that the handicap is considered.

As currently only Go has the handicap system implemented (on LG), and there is a defined value to a handicap (1 kyu diff = 1 handicap stone = 50 rating points), that is easy: For each handicap stone she gave, white is considered 1 kyu lower for the calculation.

[funny, the system inserts the '-' in description without me doing anything like it: I deleted my post, and reposted it, making sure that there is nothing at that place, but it came back by itself. Looks like a bug in the forum system]

The insertion in script is not funny but necessary as an defence against a certain type of attack

you are right about the handicap and rating, and it is not hard to do: the win expection when handicapped is near 50% (that is the reason for the handicap)

of course it assumes a strange assumption: if 2kyu difference means 75% (example, not fact) change of winning an even game, why would 2 handicap stones mean necessary an even result?

but it seems to work on real go sites as well...

There's no need to assume something like that. The only assumptions are that a proper handicap game has 50-50 chance, and that every game is started with the right handicap.

Of course, on other sites when you start out you either pick a rating, or you get a number of 'test' games to determine your rating - and in this initial phase you may need an assumption like that.

I think you do need the assumption not in calculating, but in reading because on this site I think 1kyu is 50 rating points you get a double interpretation of a rating difference:

7kyu against 9kyu both means:

*(In handicapped games) In half of the games with 2 stone handicap, first player will win.

*(in non-handicapped games) In 3 of the 4 games the first player will win

Note that using 3 players and only handicapped games the same occurs, and in the ELO system (without handicaps) as well:

I mean there is some assumed additivity that is not clear as well.

But because of the fact ratings are rough estimates anyways it doesn't matter at all.

OK, I see... I didn't think about the underlying rating points, and didn't know that 100 points difference implies a 75-25 chance...

100 points (2 kyu difference) does not imply a 3:1 chance. It is supposed to be a 10^.25:1 chance, which is approximately 64-36. 400 points (8 kyu difference) is supposed to map exactly to a 10:1 chance, which is approximately 91-9.

Regardless, we have rated games both with and without handicap. Are they scaled differently? Why is it acceptable in one set of rated games, but unworkable in another?

And how does the rating of 9x9 games affect all this?

Have there been discussions on the Go ratings? I find myself as White against heavy handicaps in my tourneys lately, and when I resign them I take quite the rating hit, and it seems the same hit as I would take playing the same opponent in a non-rated waiting room game. It seems we're doomed to have inaccurate ratings, and I can see how people of the same strength could be caught in loops of drastically different ratings.

I guess if I'm interested in winning a round of MCs, I could just hold off on resigning my high handicap games until just before a new tourney starts, then resign them all at once.

Is there a way to get handicap games rated as if the players were equal strength? Isn't that the point of handicap?

I think you are right. There is something wrong with the way the rating is computed. I would just take the rating here not serious at all. I just lost a handicap 9 game against somebody with a rating difference of 7.3 kyu (just before the game ended). The probability to lose such a game is rather high, so the rating shouldnt change much. My rating decreased by 0.6 kyu :-)

So I suppose it makes sense to hold onto all my losing games and then end them all at once before starting a new tournament, right? Is Go the only game with a handicap? Especially given the handicap bug, this would certainly result in a huge misrepresentation of my rating, giving me an easy win.

My honor and OCD prevent me from going this far, but I think I'm going to try to resign all my losing games (rather than playing them through) before starting my next MC... and heck, I'm not even usually a sandbagger, but the ratings here really seem useless, as I'm on a seemingly never-ending 3-kyu fluctuation after only a handful of games.

Dang, even with all my resignations, I can't get my rating down that much. Mainly because I forgot about my evil plan, and accepted scores from winning games, too. Or played a move and let my opponent resign. Stupid OCD, preventing me from leaving games hanging. :)

just play and forget the rating :) hope you have fun!

Heh. Always.