Tumbleweed openings on size 8

I think we are just recently getting into proper discussions about what opening lines are viable on size 8.

Looking forward to hearing some thoughts about this.

Just a general thought about the difference between size 8 and size 6 (I think it's something you or TQ have said as well). Blindly adapting the size 6 openings to size 8 is ok but probably not the most efficient. Mainly, the center is still very good to control but I think there is no need to play as close to it as in size 6. (note: I'll use the coordinates of the editor). For example, assuming this opening like in the link happens with 1. B2 F7 2. G2 I7 3. G9 F6

Size 8 orthodox

Then I think the red stack on G9 looks a bit awkward compared to the size 6 version. In a few games with TQ it seemed like it was more comfortable for red to play G10, with still a potential 2 stack on the right at O10 later on, or even G11, which can maybe look at B6

I don't really have super hard evidence for this, it's mostly feeling and looking at whether I got in trouble in a game or not, but compared to size 6 where playing on these points is often very important, it looks like in size 8 playing a bit more away from the center offers more flexibility and still achieves the goal of getting some central presence.

So my guess is that the size 6 openings can be adapted to size 8 but maybe some of the moves should be pushed a little away from the center to be a little better (but it depends on tactics of course). I'd be interested to see how people tweak some of the moves in the komacchin Pie especially with this followup or this one.

(I will also use the coordinates from the editor).

I kind of thought A1 F7 was the literal translation of size 6 orthodox to size 8

But it depends on which perspective you take, as the arrangement of pieces relative to each other is closer in yours, while the arrangement of pieces relative to landmarks like center/edge are closer in mine. I guess A1 F7 is better for white compared to B2 F7, perhaps even a little too good, although the two openings are pretty similar to one another.

In the TW 2022 WC, many pies that were played were variations on Orthodox:

A1 D7

B2 E7

B2 D7

B2 F7

A1 D5

this last one is a literal translation of the orthodox from size 6 to size 8, but imo, in a way that allows red to develop too easily.

There were also variations on Komacchin's pie (probably the most common)

B2 I10

C3 I10

A1 I10

A1 J11

Some games featured the white stack getting the cover of the neutral, while still attacking Red's most aggressive expansion spots.

A1 G9

We also got Atari, Tellorion, and TQ playing dangerous "facing" pies, where the two opening pieces face each other:

B1 J9

A2 G8

A1 E5

Some players returned to the classic board-crossing pies.

B2 K12

Also, white can go behind the neutral and off to the side.

B2 K9

A1 M9

Thanks for linking some of the championship games! Certainly seems useful to have another look at them. Out of the orthodox-like pies in your post I think I like this one the most. Seems interesting to look at the different approaches to deal with it.

For people that did not follow the championship back in the Fall, I think the opening where theory was explored the most (in the end of the loser's bracket especially) was the one in this game. It appeared a few times (sometimes with the red stack on B2 instead of C3) and I think alek, atari and testingqwerty came up with interesting insights on how to target and protect the weaknesses of the resulting positions.

I checked out how Atari's bot level 10 responds to some of the various pie offers listed above.

A1 F7 chooses white 5/6
A1 E7 chooses white 3/3
B2 E7 chooses white 3/3
C3 E7 chooses white 3/3
D4 E7 chooses red 3/3
A1 D7 chooses red 3/3
A1 G9 chooses white 3/3
C3 I10 chooses red 2/2
B2 I10 chooses white 2/2
B2 J11 chooses white 3/4
B2 K12 chooses red 2/2
A1 K12 chooses white 2/2
A1 L13 chooses red 2/2

(all these are in editor coordinates)

Phrygien you mentioned that C3 I10 G7 E6 saw a lot of theory. I wonder about a few things related to this. First, it seems to me that B2 I10 was at least as if not more popular. So we should think about which is the better pie offer, since AtariBot has different evals for each of these. Although I am not really sure if we can trust a bot with evaluations of pie offers, as their greatest strength comes in when the end is nearer. I believe AtariBot has an extra preference for white, reflecting that of its creator. The second thing I wonder about is the consequences when White goes up and to the left versus up and to the right in these situations. Also for each direction, white can play a 3-space or 4-space jump. Also I would just like to ask your opinion if you believe simply playing along the 10th line in this kind of situation is just too passive for White, or if there are cool ideas to be explored here.

I am just realizing today that you asked me a question in your last message back in the spring so I am digging up this thread to answer it. I am not an expert at this kind of opening, but personally I agree with you that B2 I10 was a more popular pie (and C3 I10 was kind of a trick against people that did not like to play Red if I remember correctly? Curious how that looks like nowadays when a couple people, testingqwerty and myself included, are starting to like Red more, with a "curling around" playstyle).

As for going to the left or to the right, I have no idea what's objectively better, although I've always thought it was more awkard for red to develop when white goes to the right.

Maybe the ataribot analysis tool has some interesting ideas for exotic variants of this opening, even if it's not its main strength. I can add something to this thread if I find anything promising.