Stone in 4th row is a 3rd row ladder escape?

I believe this 4th row template is a guaranteed 3rd row ladder escape.

I cannot find it in the David King template pages (http://www.drking.org.uk/hexagons/hex/templates.html), so there is still a chance  that I am missing a crucial defense move.

I would appreciate a confirmation from the experts.

Here are a few obvious lines of play:

I may be a little late, and I may not be among the expert players, but I confirm that you're correct.

it's valid but practical significance is not much due to play like this: http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,j8k8c9c10c8g8c7f8c6e8c5k7c4j7c3i7c2h7c1d8d9b10b1i10h9f10

Lazyplayer, I am not sure I understand what you mean. It would be great if you could elaborate.

Lazyplayer meant this: http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,j8k8c9c10c8g8c7f8c6e8c5k7c4j7c3i7c2h7c1d8d9b10b1i10h9d10e9e10f9f10

So if white plays correctly (or in practice) this http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,j8k8c9c10c8g8c7f8c6e8c5k7c4j7c3i7c2h7c1d8d9b10b1d10 shall never happen ;-)

I still do not understand. Sorry. I give up.

I'm also confused - In any cases black can (obviously) escape, so the variations don't seem to make much difference?

It's all about tempo and order. White i10 is ment to be played sufficiently early when black doesn't know yet how he uses j8.

magicnonno, i mean, in practice it's hard to find one opportunity to play j8, because it's not a very useful piece on its own

the reason why it's not good on its own is this: http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,j8i10

and that's why the focus is on moves like:

http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,j9

http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,i8

http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,h7

http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,i9

http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#11,h8

because you can play one of these early in a game and keep your win :)

Thank you for all your explanations, I think I am learning something here.

But I think I now finally understand the origin of the confusion.

The scheme that I showed:

http://www.trmph.com/diagram/1,hex,11,j8k8c9c10c8g8c7f8c6e8c5k7c4j7c3i7c2h7c1d8d9b10b1d10

was meant to represent a template, not an actual position on a 11x11 board!  That template, for example, could appear anywhere on a 13x13 board and instead of j8 the position of the stone could be j10, i10, h10,... you get the idea. It seems to me that, in this sense, most of your considerations would not apply.

In other words, my point is that the following template should be added to David King's page as a guaranteed 3rd row ladder escape.

I don't know why the picture came up twice. Sorry.

magicnonno , well, yes, that is the source of confusion. In fact I think it's useful to clarify this topic. I think it's very good idea to study "templates" (in the general sense, not just only edges) because they're local and you can always understand what's happening locally no matter how big the board. It's a very useful way to think. But at the same time, it's still true that some "templates" are less likely to happen than others!

Take a look at this: http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#19,m13n12l13n11k13n10j13n9i13m9l9m8h13

This is the same local template, but not the same identical positioning on the 11x11 board. The result is the same! The isolated black stone can still be countered rather easily for the exact same reason!

magic, here is another way to say same thing. suppose you're facing this position: http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#19,m13n12l13n11k13n10j13n9i13m9h13

suppose black has nowhere else to play and must play in that zone. what would you play, I9 or K9? i would play k9 in vast majority of cases... :)

so you see my consideration applies also to the template in itself, not just to specific board position. My consideration is just this: this pattern won't happen often in practical play.

the patterns that do happen often have some kind of "efficiency" in them that it's hard to describe in words...

and as of now, the best you can do is to play so you see them and learn to recognize them... i'm open for handicap games... :)