Little Golem Champions League

Hello StreetSoccer enthusiasts.

On the Italian board we have been discussing a proposal made by DukeOfPrunes and today we are sharing it to you so that we can get some feedback.

We’d like to organize an individual tournament based on the way the UEFA Champions League is organized. This tournament will be:

1. Open to everyone

2. Played individually but with an eye to team standings

3. Entirely rated

4. Played completely through user tournaments

5. Fast and hopefully fun

The tournament will be played in three phases (each a single-game round-robin tournament):

a. Local Qualification Groups

b. Champions League Semifinals

c. Champions League Final

In detail this is what is going to happen:

a. In the qualification, players will play against other players from the same country or region to qualify for the Champions League proper.

b. In the semifinals, players will be divided in mixed groups according to their ratings to qualify for the final.

c. In the final, players will try to win the Champions League

d. Points gained in the semifinals and finals by the players of one nation/region will be divided by the number of players of that nation/region who have qualified to the semifinal to decide how many players from that nation/region will qualify for the next Champions League (this is the same system used by UEFA to assign spots in Champions League and Europa League).

Now I understand that some of you are probably confused so I will give you the concrete example I gave on the Italian board. Please keep in mind nothing is set on stone yet, but this will give you a good idea of what we want to do.

Example:

We divide all interested players in the following eleven qualifying national/regional qualification tournaments (played through user tournaments):

I. Germany

II. Italy

III. Netherlands

IV. Poland

V. Spain

VI. West Europe: Andorra, Belgium, England, Faroe Islands, France, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Northern Ireland, Portugal, Scotland, Wales

VII. Central Europe: Austria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Liechtenstein, Malta, San Marino, Slovakia, Slovenia, Switzerland

VIII. North-East Europe: Belarus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Russia, Sweden, Ukraine

IX. South-East Europe: Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Georgia, Greece, Hungary, Israel, Kazakhstan, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania, Serbia, Turkey

X. United States

XI. Rest of the World

We’d like to have qualification tournaments of about 6-12 players so the countries who were able to field at least two teams in the SST3 get their own qualifying tournament. The other countries have been split in five regional groups. I selected them using geographical considerations and, mostly, considering how many players participated in SST3 so that groups have roughly the same number of players.

Qualifying tournaments will be played as a single-game round-robin user tournament. Players must sign in their own group. The top three players from each area advance to the CL semifinals. Should the qualifying tournament have so many players that the system splits the players in groups, only the results from the first round will be considered. For example if two groups are formed and three players go through, the winner of each group will go through and the best second will also advance (best point average). This is done so that a large qualifying tournament doesn’t hold up all other groups.

The thirty-three qualified players are divided in three groups according to rankings. Three private user tournaments are set up (same formula as before) and the top four from each group advance to the final.

The final (twelve players, private user tournament, same formula) determines the Champions League winner.

Now all the points obtained in the semifinals and finals from each team are totaled and divided - in this case - by three. The nation/region with the best average will get five spots in the next Champions League. The nations/regions with second and third best averages will get four spots. The nations/regions from fourth to seventh will keep three spots. The other nations/regions will go down to two spots.

What do you think?

Very interesting idea! Thanks for coming up with it!

Nevertheless, I do not quite understand the groups you selected. To give you a bit selfish perspective: Switzerland and Hungary (or Sweden and Finland or Czechia and Slovakia) give some of the better players in StreetSoccer here according to their rankings, while Spain is not represented in the Top50.

Moreover, Hungary and Czechia+Slovakia are doing quite well in SSTT3, while Spain is out -- and as I hear, Italy too.

And also, Hungary is (and has always been) historically part of Central Europe (cf. religion), not that of South-East Europe. Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia, together with Kazakhstan, is also not part of South-East Europe.

So the concept "played individually but with an eye to team standings" should work out better.

As I explained above the main consideration is numbers, not quality, religion, or geography. I based the groups on the participation trends I have observed in SST3.

Originally DukesOfPrunes had proposed a Champions League restricted to four national leagues. However, I have been putting forward a proposal that can involve everybody, even the lone Australian or Icelandic player.

The way this tournament is structured national/regional leagues of probaly at least six players are required. We Italians may not have too much quality, but we can certainly count on nine regular players.

I have placed Hungary in the South-East not to offend anybody, but because I was predicting a nice number of players from the Central region (Switzerland, Slovakia, etc.) and not enough from the South-East. The other countries you mention are included because they are part of UEFA, but I have yet to meet a player here from those countries.

The way I see it is this. Either we Italians invite three or four national leagues to join us and we go from there, or we look for a solution that can be long term and allows everybody to participate same as it is with SST3. We are open to all suggestions and ideas.

I like the idea. To avoid confusion on which country is in which part of europe, it may be a good idea to rename the regions to "Europe I", "Europe II" etc. As I take it, the "borders" of these groups are flexible anyway; if for example there are two german players missing, but two hungarians more than expected, why not transfer a few players to another region to keep things even. The important part is player distribution, not nationality, isn't it?

Wow, quartastella, you are flexing some colonialist muscles! If this is the way you approach the Champion's League idea, then no, thanks.

A brief history lesson for you: 'Mitteleuropa' was a German idea that included the region between France and Russia (W-E) and the Baltics and the Balkans (N-S), which was then later divided into East-Central Europe (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, historically all Catholic countries) and West-Central Europe (the German-speaking Germany, Austria, and Switzerland). Since Slovenia and Croatia are also Catholic, and historically strongly connected to Austria and Hungary, they can be also considered as part of East-Central Europe.

Southeast-Europe, on the other hand, is historically Greek Catholic or Orthodox, and it includes the countries south and east of Hungary (the 'Balkans' as they say sometimes). This is a convention of international politics as well, so follow it.

Instead of chianti approach (which I don't agree with), I prefer Figilano's. Let's divide the world in Europe I, Europe II, North America, .... , Rest of the World. And the countries in them are based on the people regularly playing. With quartastella's proposal for managing the spots for each, gradually the "level of play" will take part.

It's a great idea.

Hi all, LGCL - Little golem Champions League - could work if all the community agree that it would be funny. I dont want you fuss and fight for my project.

I think that Figliano is right. But if you keep on complaining for geography, or religion, or languages, I will divide you by Zodiacal signs! ;-)

I like the idea of throwing away geographic divisions. I would like to play, for example, in the Cosmo qualifying tournament :-)

Throwing away geographic divisions is just like playing the Championship, right? :)

Duke, it's your proposal, divide us as you like.

I'm Leo by the way :)

I like the idea, and i like quartastella justification too, let us start the registeration and count each region. I guess rest of the world may be divided into more sections.

Put Hungary and Italy in one qualifying group and I sign up for it!

I just don't get it how could Hungary be part of Southeastern Europe while Croatia to the south of it is part of Central Europe. Ridiculous.

Since the initial proposal was the creation of a restricted Champions League, my efforts have gone toward finding a solution that would allow anyone to be included regardless how few people from his/her country play StreetSoccer at Little Golem.

I have already read in the Italian board that Portuguese and Icelandic people have nothing in common and here I am treated to a history lesson on why "the others" are different from "us" so we should not be with "them."

My efforts were toward bringing more people together not toward dividing anyone along any preconceived notions. I made a proposal and asked for suggestions. I'm done. Feel free to organize the Champions League the way you like it. However, keep in mind that if we are to have a continuos project, some kind of geographical division is necessary. UEFA uses this system for a reason. If the places in the 2010-2011 European cups are assigned by color of jersey, the places in 2011-2012 are assigned according to the first letter of the team's name, and then in 2012-2013 teams are allowed to group themselves together as they please, you have just single tournaments, not a continuos project.

Great. If you do not want to create divisions that might be sensitive, then just consider rethinking the way you grouped the countries.

My history lesson was not about "us" vs. "them" differences, and not about which countries I would like to see Hungary grouped with.

I just called your attention to a simple fact that Hungary forms a group of countries, together with Poland, Czechia, Slovakia that are called the Visegrad countries (a historical construct and political grouping), and this East-Central European core can be complemented with Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, and perhaps even Romania (although an Orthodox country culturally more resembling Serbia and Bulgaria).

These are groupings and divisions that history created and politics has accepted and perpetuated, your groupings and divisions are artificially made up.

(On a side note: I have no idea why Kazakhstan is a member of UEFA. It seems UEFA has its own strange history. But if that is the case, then create an Eastern European group that would comprise the former Soviet republics.)

I understand sensitivities emerging from historical experience, so I vote for Figilano's proposal.

By the way, LGCL is obviously an opt-in tournament (or series of tournaments), so first you should announce the inaugural season (2010-2011) and set a time limit for players to sign up. Once you have a large enough pool of determined regular players, then you can think about regional divisions.

Obviously, when it turns out that there are 8-10 players under the same flag, then they should form a qualifying group. But no other grouping should be made prematurely and based on whatever preconceptions.

You cannot plan for years ahead. Who knows, if internet is suddenly banned in Poland for some reason, then there is no more Polish qualifying group, right?

If Italian prime minister decides that the Web should be dangerous for him, he will try to ban it, conrolling and/or censuring. Like he's trying to do with television and newspapers.

Anyway... I definitely agree with bloke. But before announcing a starting date, we'd better send many PMs to friends in order to explain to everyone what's going on.

We may also (if you like the idea) open a new topic where interested players might (temporary) sign in, and hopefully join other players of the same countries.

Of course, SSTT teams are welcome, and they could be considered a starting point.

Please notice that User Tournements have a maximum of 15 players.

And dont forget... we're just here to HAVE FUN

That's the key; HAVE FUN! Thanks, quartastella, four your idea, and thanks, everybody else, for your points of view. I think that quartastella posted this "in order to order" the candidates who wanna play next Little Golem Champions League, based on geographical reasons... Let's open the registration period, see who wants to play... and arrange them then.

By the way, I hope to be back within the Top 50 soon... ;-)

:)

Please don't deny: Football and any other team sport is about "us" vs. "them".

That's the backgroud of choosing any grouping criteria. Local grouping using flags is just the most traditional way.

Siena from Bhutan is Hungarian, correct ?

Zodiac signs are not bad, neither. I think you can establish a group identity by any discriminating symbol. I prefer to beat Aquariussans, rather than people starting with 'M' ;)

(Most fun is to send your chosen sign in a PM and see how you're grouped afterwards)

And, opposite to the SSTT, in LGCL the neighbors are not your team, but the ones you have to eliminate first, to reach the semifinal.

The difference to championship is that all start on the same level.

And that levels are mixed, to encourage random results.

Don't think too much about grouping the next LGCL before we experienced the first one

thanks Michael. Let me explain once more:

- Little Golem Champions League should be something BETWEEN championships and SSTT.

- It should be completely RATED and played by Single Players, BUT

- You are part of a Team. (Or Federation if you prefer). You DO have to beat the members of you team, but if you lose, you will hope they are doing well in LGCL, so that you will have good chances in next editions.

- I dont know if this is clear. Lets suppose Italy has 3 spots. I am 4th in my league. I dont play CL, but my friend are doing very well. So next LGCL Italy will have 4 spots: maybe this time i can qualify!

I think it's clear, but in real life there are existing federations.

Here you can choose among "--", "Vanuatu", "Isle of Man", "Europe", "Italy" and many others. And you can change it deliberately, even easier than changing your name.

My proposal at SSTT3 was offering a federation by forum thread language, which led to "problems" keeping a Ghost with google_translate knowledge out ;-)

IMO, if you offer geographical federations, you should not try to check the ip address location ( possible by the LG server, not by other users ) but accept even Bhutanese Italians, if they are called "Chianti" (just as an example). At least not force them to group with somebody claiming to come from between Istanbul and Thessaloniki if they prefer some different federation.

Sure, zodiac signs were a joke, but what if it turns out Leos are better StreetSoccer players than Pisces and thus deserve one slot more in the (after-) next LGCL round in 2014 ... (More fun than your Italian example, and more likely ;=)

I dont want to force anybody! You are free to do what you want.

I decided to write a new topic with some rules and how LCL should work. It will be the topic where players can make their (unofficial, by now) INSCRIPTION.

We'll keep THIS TOPIC for discussions and injuries; please use the other one ONLY for inscribe.

@MichaelX: For the record, I did not use Babelfish or Google Translate. I couldn't believe that a machine translation would be convincing. For each team, I found a littlegolem member or two who agreed to help the joke by doing translations into their native languages.

Unfortunately, there are not too many StreetSoccer enthusiasts from Luxembourg, but if there's a center of Europe, it's of course there (or in Belgium, maybe).

I think the federation building phase will remain very interesting.

Luckily, many people offer multiple grouping possibilities.

Looking forward to reaching goal #5:

"Fast and hopefully fun"

Ok guys. There about 40 players registered in LCL. Not so much, since - in my wishes - the final of LCL was intended to be with 32 players.

But never mind. I didn't start yet to divide you in groups; I will wait until September, than we will form several Leagues.

Now I will try to send some PM and make some advertisement. Lets just wait & see-

Maybe wait to end of SST? I think we would have more players but it will take long time...

SSTT will probably end in 2012.

I hope that LCL will be easier to organize than SSTT: players just have to register in the right User Tournement (RATED), and the system will do everything. We will not have to invite somebody else, or wait for His invitation...

And when problems will present, we will try to solve. Together.

Btw. instead of geographical order for grouping you could name the teams Europe I - IV. Or all teams that have to play as "Europe" could be separated by starting letter of the country, so you could easily adjust group size after register phase and there is still some geographical dependence. So we would have for example Europe A-G, ..., Europe S-Z. (For me the proposed system is okay too)

Lets wait till September. Than we will count how many players there are, and we will find (hopefully) the best way to divide. Maraca, the others swiss players won't register? In SSTT3 you had a strong team.

Hey folks, we are more than a hundred! Hope we will have fun. In the first days of September I will end up registrations; than I will try to divide you and I will create many Leagues. Stay tuned!

Hi there. If I dint't miscount, there are now 146 players registered!

Now, 16*9=144. I will try to create 16 different Leagues, each with 8-10 players.

So, best 2 of each "federation" will acceed to LCL's final Phase. Simple and easy. (I hope!)

Good luck all - have fun!

(I will send to ALL OF YOU a Private Message to tell you what's going on, and what you should do.)

I took my maps today, and i tried to divide you in 16 Leagues. I will not tell you the details, but most of them is composed by 9 players. Of course i am still working on it, and it's TEMPORARY since more players can register until August 31.

Leagues should be:

1. Italy - 9 players

2. France - 8

3. Spain - 10

4. Poland - 9

5. UK - 9

6. Germany A - 9 players

7. Switzerland/Germany B - 9 players

8. Slovakia/Hungary - 8

9. Scandinavia - 8 players

10. Balcans - 10

11. Netherlands - 11

12. South America/South Africa - 9

13. Usa A - 9

14. Usa B - 9

15. Usa C/Canada - 9

16. Cosmos (Belgium... + 5 from all over the world) - 10

I take it that Germany B and USA C are designations that do not, unlike SSTT3, denote lower ratings than their A counterparts.

I can only suppose that ratings shall be as evenly as possible distributed through USA and Germany groups. There might be a complication with the presence of Canadians in USA C and Swisses in germany B, shall those prove to be too strong/weak.

My intention is not to divide USA players by their rating.

I wrote USA A,B,C because I didn't decide HOW to divide them (22 till now). I am going to send them a PM asking them what they want to do. There are several possibilities. North-South, East-West, Republicans-Democrats and so on... Please give me new ideas.

The same for Germany: I think that 3-4 Southern German players (such as Bavarians) should accept to play with Swiss players. I hope.

During the night, l had another idea. l will probably change something, and create Mediterran League.

(but l always have the problem to place players from Belgium!)

As you can see, there are too many players in Netherlands. I should find one of them (2) that may like to play in Scandinavian League (they are only 8, including a russian player...)

Greetings

@Duke: Another way of dividing the players is by birth month, where "birth" is registration date at Little Golem. E.g. http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/info/player.jsp?plid=14918 shows

Registered: 2007-06-01

Or just use the last two digits of player id.

Typically Belgians divide themselves into French or Dutch.

And typically Swiss define themselves as "NOT German"

Just to make it more complicated for you, Duke...

Why not organize geographic groups not in an administrative but in a topographic sense?

So we could have Rhein League, Elbe League, Alpes League, Iberia League, Carpathian League, Padania League, Adria League, Aegean League, etc. in Europe and similar constructs in other continents. This way arbitrary national boundaries would count less than the chosen location of residence of the player.

After all, this is intended as an individual tournament where representing a nation is unimportant. We do not even need flags here.

@Malaj: it is true that nations are not so important in LCL. But when final phase will be over, players will get some points/awards. Adding these results, we should declare a Nation winner.

For example, if a greek wins LCL, but 2nd and 3rd are Dutch, they would be Best Team.

A kind of... Team Tournement. And, what's more, if Dutches are doing good, in LCL's second Edition (if there will be), they will have THREE instead of TWO players in final phase. Is it clear?!

Why insisting on national administrative categories such as Greek, Dutch or Hungarian? Why not replacing them with the topo-geographic categories of Lowlands League, Aegean League or Carpathian League? These could work equally well in establishing with League (thus, not nation) could send more players into the final phase.

In American college sports they have Ivy League, Pacific Ten, Sun Belt Conference, etc. that are roughly geographic indicators but not state-specific. That could be a model to be applied, too.

Or if you do not like strictly geographic categories, you could choose symbolic names that are connected to certain regions. Why not Vodka League for some Russian, Finnish and Swedish players? Why not Olive League for some Greek, Italian or Spanish players? Why not Lederhosen League for some Austrian, Swiss and Bavarian players?

Let's be more creative and have more fun. Competitions between nations are really boring.

Lederhosen League... o.O

I consider myself more in the Jeans League. Or if it must have prejudice in it, why not Kraut League? :-D

Btw. if you have problems by grouping belgium, for me it would be okay to group belgium together with the swiss, that would be 10 players I think. I also have no problem playing with the germans, but I wouldn't consider it to be fair if they send the strongest players to the Swiss league. Same for USA C and Canada.

I would say if x players get to the next round and there are y groups with only 1 nation and a mixed grouped, at least the x*y best players are not allowed to be in the mixed group.

I see the best 2 get promoted, so the rule explained above would mean that the 2 best german players are not allowed to play in the swiss group and the 4 best us american players are not allowed to play in the canadian group.

@FC Malaj: Very good idea!

I would love to play, for example, in the Lion League or the Rastafarian Conference (but not in a Vuvuzela Division). And anyone would be welcome to join!

I fully trust in the grouping of DukeOfPrunes

and indeed I like the first temporary composition.

It is oriented to be like the Champions League

and clewarly it makes sense to combine geographical division

because of the travel expenses

So, good work and I am looking forward to playing the first match.

P.S. : I hope tigis will join the LCL as I just saw he signed in the monthly cup

I knew Brussels was already the capital of Europe, but it seems to have ambitions beyond: capital of the Cosmos???

Great job Duke.

@Talizess: What FC Malaj proposed is also a geographic division but allows for a more even spread of players because it is not fixated on national boundaries.

So, from a "travel expenses" point of view, a Rhein League may be just as expedient as a South German League, for example.

National boundaries are becoming obsolete indeed, but it does not mean other type of geographic divisions cannot work out in the UEFA-type way.

(By the way, the whole original concept is rather Eurocentric.)